Friday, April 10, 2009

A Discourse on "The Discourse on the Holy Theotokos" *

* Fully Translated Title: “The Discourse Spoken by Saint apa Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, upon the Return from His Second Exile, on the Holy Theotokos, the Virgin Mary, Who Gave God Flesh; and on Elizabeth the Mother of John–and He Refutes and Rebukes Arius– on Those Who Practice the Abomination of the Gentiles, That Is to Say Magic, and on Manasseh, King of Judah, and on Drunkenness and Illicit Fornication.”

~The title of the work appearing in an article written by Louis Theophile Lefort entitled “The Homily of Saint Athanasius from the Papyri of Turin,” Le Muséon 71:209-233 (1958) attributed to Saint Athanasius the Great, Patriarch of Alexandria (as translated by Paul R. Hoffer from the French provided by Monsieur L. Th. Lefort).

Prelude: Confessions

Above all other things set a watch upon thy mouth , and over what thou hearest harden thy heart. For a word is a bird: once it is released none can recapture it!”

~ Ahiqar the Aramaean, chancellor to King Sennarcherib, from a papyrus of the fifth century before Christ.


I had a great deal of difficulty in writing this small work in response to the charges that Turretinfan (hereinafter oft referred to as Mr. Fan) made against Catholic apologists, Steven Ray and William Albrecht in an article he wrote on AOMin.org and on his own blog, “Thoughts of Francis Turretinfan.” In order to properly respond to the points raised in his articles, I had to expend a great deal of time and effort gathering research materials found in various libraries across the State of Ohio; corresponding with a genuine Athanasian scholar who was kind enough to provide some guidance and an opinion; translating or getting translated articles written in French, Italian, Spanish, German, Latin and Greek; and, then reading them all through at least once before I sat down to compose this paper.

Yet to be truthful, I had more difficulty actually writing this piece. You see, I had trouble wording my rebuttal. It wasn’t that Mr. Fan’s arguments were hard to rebut; they were not. However, the overall paucity of actual information Mr. Fan presented in support of his arguments combined with objectively poor argumentation rendered it almost impossible for me not to respond in an uncharitable manner. I was horribly tempted to lower myself to Mr. Fan’s level and use the same sort of argumentation he used against Messrs. Ray & Albrecht suggesting that Mr. Fan (with the blessings of his co-religionists at AOMin) had either engaged in deliberate and malicious dishonesty or misfeasance in regards to the research effort behind the articles he wrote to smear the reputations of Messrs. Ray and Albrecht specifically and Catholic theologians and apologists in general. In fact, as certain witnesses can attest if asked, the first draft of this paper was going down that path.

However, one evening before bed, I was reading the First Epistle of Saint Peter and I came across a passage reminding me how we Christians are to treat our brothers in Christ, separated brethren included. Thus, I will not render evil for evil or abuse for abuse (1 Pt. 3:9). I have chosen not to respond in the manner Mr. Fan used against Mr. Ray even though I have no illusions that Mr. Fan or his cohorts will cease using such argumentation. Irenic discourse is generally not Mr. Fan’s modus operandi. Nevertheless, I will not ascribe possible motivations as to why Mr. Fan failed to present the reader with all of the facts. Hopefully, I have successfully redacted Turretinfan-like ad hominem argumentation from this paper to allow the facts to present themselves.

That being said, I do not intend to shy away from presenting my own case critiquing and refuting Mr. Fan arguments with respect to his claims in regards to The Discourse on the Holy Theotokos (the name I gave to the piece). I intend to do so in two parts. The first part will review the arguments Mr. Fan makes and the evidence he presented in support of the premise he advances that a Pseudo-Athanasius as opposed to the real Athanasius composed The Discourse on the Holy Theotokos and the quote that apparently Mr. Fan finds so disagreeable. The second part, which will be published on my website shortly after Easter (after I do my final fact checking), will endeavor to rebut Mr. Fan’s contention that a Catholic apologist can not use the writings of the Early Church Fathers (in this instance Athanasius) to make a compelling case in support of what the Catholic Church teaches today. In the second part we will actually examine the contents of The Discourse on the Theotokos to see if one can in good faith say that Saint Athanasius wrote the work and compare what it says about Mary with Athanasiana that are generally considered to be vera.

Now before I go any further, I need to make the following proffer. Throughout the articles that will follow, I will be quoting from a number of sources written in French or another language. In an effort to make things a bit more lucid for the reader, I have even made the attempt to translate my French quotes into English. But I offer this warning: I am not a French scholar. Aside from a couple of romantic poems to my wife, I have not written in French in over 25 years. Aside from one or two occasions, I have not carried on an intelligent conversation of more than 5 minutes in French in 23 years. The extent of my expertise in reading and writing the French language amounts to four years of high school, and my freshman and sophomore years of college (I got my B.A. 28 years ago and my J.D. 25 years ago). Since that time the extent of exercising of my French skills have amounted to reading several works by Alexandre Dumas, père et fils, a couple of plays by Molière and Sartre, and most recently some works of St. Francis de Sales and Saint John Vianney in French. I also own three Spiderman and one Fantastic Four comic books in French.

Oh yes, most importantly~I have watched every Pink Panther movie that both Peter Sellers and Steve Martin have made.

Please note: I will plead the fifth if anyone were to ask me how often I had to use my LaRousse French-English dictionary to look up any French words I did not know or remember and to ascertain verb tenses.

However, now having given advance notice of my linguistic shortcomings, there should be no need to write a blog posting about how Hoffer erred in mistranslating a French word into English, or gave a verb the wrong tense, or that my translation was too literal or was not word-for-word, or worst of all, I failed to properly distinguish an accent ague from an accent grave. To overcome my deficiencies, I have provided the French along with my translations so any critics may satisfy themselves with the correctness of my translation or try their hand at it if they think that they could do better.

Some final notes- while I do pretend to have a small measure of fluency in the English and French languages, I boast no fluency in Spanish, Latin, Italian, German, Greek or Coptic/Sahidic whatsoever. Further, I do not pretend to be a scholar of Athanasiana. About the only thing I have in common with St. Athanasius is membership in the Church Christ founded, the one, holy, apostolic Catholic Church.

One further note~whatever understanding I have gained in this project and about Athanasius is due to the help of many. I would like thank Dr. David Brakke of Indiana University (Go Hoosiers!), Mr. William Albrecht, Mr. & Mrs. David Waltz, my son Christian Hoffer, and the Marian Library at the University of Dayton, the Cleveland Public Library for allowing me access to its White Collection of Rare Books, and the A.T. Wehrle Memorial Library at the Pontifical College Josephinum. Anything good in this paper is a result of their assistance, any errors found within I take full and sole ownership.

Without further ado, here is Part I of my paper on Saint Athanasius and The Discourse on the Holy Theotokos.

PART ONE OF: A Discourse on the “Discourse Spoken by Saint Apa Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, upon the Return from His Second Exile, on the Holy Theotokos, the Virgin Mary, Who Gave God Flesh; and on Elizabeth the Mother of John–and He Refutes and Rebukes Arius– on Those Who Practice the Abomination of the Gentiles, That Is to Say Magic, and on Manasseh, King of Judah, and on Drunkenness and Illicit Fornication.” (CPG 2187)

I. Opening Statement

It is has been said that the goal of any true research project, whether it be great or humble, is to start with a question and end with an answer. Over on the AOMin blog site as well as his own blog, Turretinfan, a modern-day Thirsil, has written a series of articles questioning whether a certain quote used by many of today’s Catholic apologists as support for the Catholic doctrine of Mary’s sinlessness was actually written by Saint Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria in the 4th century AD. The pseudonymous Calvinist apologist began his attack as follows:
It's very popular among Rome's apologists today, to make claims that famous church fathers, those that "Protestants" would have heard of, held to the same views as Rome teaches today. Unfortunately for Catholicism, history is not her friend. So, while occasionally a church father or two will provide some seemingly helpful material for the apologist for Catholicism, these sorts of things often aren't really good enough to provide a compelling case from the best known fathers.

So some of these apologists turn to spurious works: pseudographic writings that are attributed to some father but were not actually written by him. This can happen two ways: (1) unintentionally or (2) deliberately.

~from Misquoting Athanasius (Friday, February 27, 2009)

In this instance, Mr. Fan claims that the following quote pertaining to the Blessed Virgin Mary is taken from a spurious, pseudographic writing wrongfully attributed to St. Athanasius of Alexandria:
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.”

Now one can easily see why this passage would upset a serious neo-antidicomarianite like Mr. Fan because if the quote was to be determined to be genuine, it would directly refute the carefully crafted assertion propounded by 19th and 20th century Calvinists that the Catholic Church’s arguments in favor of the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary was a medieval invention, an excrescence on the true faith of the early Church. It also tends to refute Mr. Fan’s premise that Catholic apologists can not make a compelling case from the writings of Saint Athanasius or other Early Church Fathers that the early Catholic Church adhered to any doctrines that present-day Catholics believe.

In support of his argument against Catholic apologists, Mr. Fan states:

So, now we find apologists for Rome citing a spurious, pseudographic work entitled "Homily of the Papyrus of Turin." This work is not part of any standard corpus of Athanasian writings, and no scholar who deals with Athanasius has (to my knowledge) ever identified it as authentic. It is not found in any Greek manuscripts but apparently comes down to us in a single Coptic manuscript. The manuscript does have the name "Athanasius" at the top, but this is not a sufficient reason to consider it an authentic work, as anyone familiar with ancient manuscripts would be aware.

Ibid.

As we see, Mr. Fan makes several basic arguments that the work in question is a “spurious, pseudographic work”:
1. It is not part of any standard corpus of Athanasian writings.

2. No scholar who deals with Athanasius has ever identified it as authentic.

3. It is not found in any Greek MSS, but in a single Coptic manuscript.
In defense of Catholic apologists everywhere, I have taken upon myself the task of replying to each of Mr. Fan’s claims in support of his argument and to demonstrate that Mr. Fan fails to make the case, at least with the evidence he adduced thus far, that the work in question is a spurious, pseudographic work written by a Pseudo-Athanasius as opposed to the real saint. At the end of the day, even if the reader does not believe that I succeed in rebutting Mr. Fan’s charges, it is my fervent hope the reader takes away from this small work a better appreciation for the hard work that real literary and patristic scholars and philologists do, whose main business it is to add to the body of knowledge concerning a writer and his work, to dispel mistakes that are sometimes found in the pages of the historical record, and to place the writer in the context of history. Better yet, I hope the reader will come away with a better understanding of the difference between research and scholarship, or as Richard Altick in his book, The Art of Literary Research quoting H.L. Mencken wrote, “Learning without wisdom is a load of books on an ass’s back.”

II. Law of the Case

Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas.”

Where there is doubt, there is freedom.” ~A maxim of Law

Before I attempt to address Mr. Fan’s claims, I need to set down some general parameters concerning how one goes about determining the authenticity of authorship of a literary work. The first question to be asked is why even discuss who wrote a particular work or not? The answer may be found in Richard Altick’s The Art of Literary Research (1963) starting on page 64:
“As human beings we an ineradicable and perfectly valid desire to know what fellow-man created the work of art we admire. Even more important is the fact, once more, that seldom is an artistic work an isolated entity which can be explained and judged solely in term of itself. It is, on the contrary, one among several or many productions of the same creative intelligence, and sound criticism requires our placing it among other works which preceded or followed it and using to the full the insights they afford both into it and into the mind that produced them all.

Knowledge of authorship, then, far from diverting the critic from his proper business, lights him on his way. The research that substantiates, or corrects, this knowledge has three chief objects: to identify the author of anonymous or pseudonymous works (or works attributed to the wrong writer); to decide which parts of a work written by two or more authors belong to whom; and to remove from the received list of a writer’s works whatever pieces are not his, thereby purifying his canon (the roster of his authentic writings).”

Scholars, whether they be literary, biblical, patristic or Marian scholars, all use similar criteria and techniques in studying whether a work (or portions of a work) belong to a particular author. Based on what I have read in my researches for this paper, it would appear that scholars use the following criteria to assist them in their analysis:
1. What are the textual witnesses to the work; that is what copies or variants of the writing exist in the same or other languages.

2. Ancient testimony or to be more precise whether the work is commented upon or quoted by other ancient contemporary or later sources.

3. Evidence of an original, if an original is not preserved.

4. Ancient title; that is whether the work actually was referred to by name elsewhere by the writer.

5. The nature or type of the work.

6. Internal evidence contained in the text itself, for the author’s milieu, including geographic setting and date.

7. Comparison of the content of the work against other accepted genuine works of that writer.

8. Other archaeological or historical evidence

An excellent example of an Athanasian scholar utilizing these criteria to determine the authenticity of several writings attributed to Athanasius can be found in Dr. David Brakke’s “The Authenticity of the Ascetic Athanasiana.” Orientalia 63, 1994, pp. 17-56. See also, Pseudo-Athanasius and Brakke, David. Pseudo-Athanasius on virginity. Lovanii [Louvain]: Peeters, 2002 where Dr. Brakke uses these criteria to demonstrate why that work was labeled as a spurious writing; and, Brakke, David. Athanasius and the Politics of Asceticism. Oxford: Claredon Press (1995).

Utilizing the above criteria, most scholars who study ancient manuscripts sort them into one of four categories: scriptor incertus, spuria, dubia, and vera or authentica. Vera and authentica are interchangeable terms used to denote works whose authorship are generally not disputed or whose authenticity or genuineness have been settled among scholars. Dubia is the category in which works fall whose attribution to a particular author is questioned, unsettled or undetermined. Spuria, on the other hand, are writings that have been proven to be written by someone other than the real author. “Pseudograph” and “pseudographic writing” are merely synonyms for the phrase “spurious writing” using Greek terms as opposed to Latin. A work that is considered scriptor incertus or just incertus merely means that there is insufficient information to attribute any authorship to a particular work.

Now on his blog, Mr. Fan blurs the line between dubia and spuria by downplaying the difference between these two terms and there are significant differences between the two. In order for a work to truly be a spurious writing, actual evidence of its falsity must be presented in light of the criteria listed above and accepted as such by scholars.

Dubious writings, on the other hand, include a larger variety of works. As I mentioned earlier, works whose authorship are disputed or questioned between scholars are categorized as dubious writings. Dubia also include works that are presumed spurious by scholars for one reason or another until sufficient research has been done to either prove or disprove authorship. Works believed to be or have been presumed authentic in antiquity, but have more recently been doubted, are listed among the dubia. One famous example of this occurring is the NT Letter to the Hebrews. While no Christian doubts that the work is authentic and divinely inspired, attribution to Saint Paul as the human author is much disputed these days. Most Christians up to recent times considered St. Paul to be its author (I still do); however, many present-day scholars, Protestant and Catholic, doubt that St. Paul wrote it. Disputes over authorship of the Epistle to the Hebrews is not a singular event. As a part of my research efforts to write this paper, I read a recently published article by a scholar who was attempting to show that the fourth Gospel was not written by St. John the Evangelist. The gist of the article was that Gospel of John was too “Catholic” to be genuine. Finally, dubia is used to classify works that give indications that they appear to be genuine, but there lacks sufficient evidential support going to the enough of the above-listed criteria for scholars to determine to a reasonable certainty that they are genuine.

Dubia present special problems for patristic scholars. Turretinfan’s jibes aside, if dubious works are not to be considered along with works considered to be authentic, there is a possibility one could get an incomplete view of that writer’s views or beliefs. On the other hand, a decision to include them creates the risk of giving an incorrect view of that writer. Fortunately, as we will show in the second part of this paper, we do not have this problem as the accepted authentic writings of Saint Athanasius clearly demonstrate his advocacy for many of the Marian doctrines present-day Catholics believe. As we shall see, the work from which the quote Mr. Fan finds so much fault with is merely corroborative of what St. Athanasius wrote about the Blessed Mother in his other writings.

Turretinfan’s efforts to conflate dubia with spuria and to minimize their differences is not a trend supported by scholarly consensus. Moreover, it is a cheat because such operates to relieve Mr. Fan of his obligation to adduce qualitative evidence in support of his claim that the work in question belongs to Pseudo-Athanasius as opposed to the real Athanasius. I would ask the reader to bear this in mind when we next review Mr. Fan’s evidence he offers to try to prove his case.

Chapter III: Something Mr. Fan and I Can Agree on.

Before I address Mr. Fan’s arguments, I wish to note that Mr. Fan does Catholics a real service in highlighting an important point. The title of the work in question is not now, nor was it ever, “The Homily of the Papyrus of Turin.” But to be fair to us “apologists of Rome,” – and I have gone back and read many of the Catholic apologists who have cited to the work and I could be mistaken as I do not represent that I have read every single person who has cited to the work – I am not so sure that Catholic apologists actually claim that Athanasius, real or imagined, entitled the work as such. Rather, they give the citation “The Homily of the Papyrus of Turin” merely to show the source of where they got the quote.

That said, the title “The Homily of the Papyrus of Turin” is actually an inaccurately rendered English translation of the title of an article containing a French translation of the work written by the famed French scholar Louis Theophile Lefort. The title of Lefort’s article is simply titled, “L’Homelie de S. Athanase des Papyrus de Turin,” Le Muséon 71:209-239 (1958) which translates into English as “The Homily [or Discourse] of Saint Athanasius of the Papyri of Turin.” I use the plural papyri as opposed to papyrus because the contraction “des” (de + les) indicates that the word “papyrus” is in the plural. The error is one that is easily made. Someone who does not speak or write French would not know that the French language, unlike the English language, does not have a plural for papyrus much like the English language does not have a plural for moose, deer, sheep, or offspring (a stumbling block for Protestants when they are arguing that Jesus had brothers and sisters).

Also, the French word “homélie” does not necessarily translate as “homily” either. “Discourse” may be more appropriate because it is not clear from a reading of the text that St. Athanasius actually recited it during Mass, which would be where a homily or sermon is given. In fact, Lefort uses the word “discours” in his translation suggesting some uncertainty over the nature of the work.

It is also not accurate to call the work by its Latin designation, Homilia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria. The Latin title is actually of very recent origin. As best I can tell, this title was the name given to it by Father Marek Starowieyski in an article he wrote in Latin defending the authenticity of the work entitled, “Maria nova eva in traditione Alexandrina et Antiochena (saeculo V),” Marianum XXXIV (1972), pp. 329-385. Thus far, I have not found anyone prior to Starowieyski’s article in Marianum ever referring to the work by a similar Latin title attributed to it. For certain, neither Saint Athanasius, the genuine article nor the pseudonymous version, would have called the work by this abbreviated Latin name as Latin was not the lingua franca of the 4th and 5th century Alexandrian Church. For certain, Saint Athanasius knew the Latin language, but he would not have given a sermon or homily to the faithful in Alexandria using Latin.

So what is the title of the actual work in question? Without further ado, here is the title of the work as Lefort translated it:

“Discours prononcé par le saint apa Athanase archevêque d'Alexandrie, lors de son retour du second exil,sur la vierge sainte theotokos Marie, celle qui engendra Dieu, et (sur) Élisabeth mère de Jean, --il réfute et rabroue Arius-- et sur ceux qui pratiquent l'abomination des Gentils, c'est-à-dire l'incantation, et sur Manassé roi de Juda, et sur l'ivresse et la porneia.”

Le Muséon 71:209.

My English translation:
“Discourse Spoken by Saint Apa Athanasius, Patriarch of Alexandria, upon the Return from His Second Exile, on the Holy Theotokos, the Virgin Mary, Who Gave God Flesh; and on Elizabeth the Mother of John–and He Refutes and Rebukes Arius– and on Those Who Practice the Abomination of the Gentiles, That Is to Say, Magic, and on Manasseh, King of Judah, and on Drunkenness and Illicit Fornication.”

I would also note that this is not the first time that the title of the work in question has been translated along these lines. In an article written by Alexis Mallon in Revue de l’Orient chrétien entitled “Documents de Source Copte Sur la Vierge” p 182-196, 250-258 (1905), one finds the following translation of the title of the work in French:
“Sermon prononcé par saint Athanase, archevêque d’Alexandrie, au retour de son second exil, au sujet de la Vierge sainte, Marie, la Mère de Dieu et Élizabeth la mère de Jean, pour réfuter et confondre Arius et ceux qui sont de l’abomination des gentils.”

Ibid at 195.

My translation:

“Sermon given by Saint Athanasius, archbishop of Alexandria, on the return from his second exile on the subject of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God and Elizabeth the mother of John in order to refute and confound Arius and those who do the abomination of the gentiles.”

Given the lengthiness of the full title of the work, I shall hereinafter refer to the work as “The Discourse on the Theotokos.” It should be noted that the title of the work is what the copyist named it, not what Saint Athanasius named it. It is merely a gloss added to the work. The actual name of the work, if it ever had one, is lost to history.

Now that we have that out of the way, we can now look at Mr. Fan’s arguments.

Chapter IV: Turretinfan’s First Argument

Many are we, yet our words be few.
Make answer thou, point against point. And say
First this one thing: thy mother didst thou slay?


~From the Trial of Orestes found in the Eumenides

As previously noted, Mr. Fan makes three arguments in support of his contention that The Discourse on the Theotokos is a spurious, pseudographic work not written by St. Athanasius at all. As an overview of his presentation, I would note that for the most part he does not provide any analysis of the quote using the criteria that genuine Athanasian scholars use to analyze the authenticity of a writing. Nevertheless, I will attempt to meet Mr. Fan on his field and answer each of his points anyway.

The first claim that Mr. Fan makes is:
“This work is not part of any standard corpus of Athanasian writings[.]”

There are several problems with this statement. First, it is not one of the criteria that genuine Athanasian scholars use to determine authenticity or spuriousness of a work. In other words, it is wholly irrelevant whether The Discourse on the Theotokos is included in various 19th or 20th century corpora. One will find, if they study such things, that the authors of such compendia of the works of the Early Church Fathers mainly focus on works they feel are the most important or significant in some way and such corpora often include works considered to be dubia and even spuria.

A second objection, and a more practical one at that, Mr. Fan does not identify nor does he define what he considers to be a “standard corpus of Athanasian writings.” How does one, pray tell, discern what constitutes a “standard corpus” of Athanasian writings? What objective criteria does one use to determine the standard-ness of a corpus of Athanasiana? Do scholars even agree on the existence of any standard corpora of Athanasian works? If so, does one group of scholars refer to a corpus of Athanasiana that is different than another group of scholars?

I would suggest that Mr. Fan needs to define “standard” because depending on one’s definition of “standard corpus,” one could argue that it is inaccurate. In the first place, the work does appear with a number of other works by the Early Church Fathers in the papyri that were found together and are kept at the Turin’s Museum of Egyptology. Thus, the work obviously was treated as a part of someone’s corpus or corpora of Alexandrian fathers at some point in history or it wouldn’t have been written in the first place. Further, the work (or at least portions of it) does appear in at least one standard corpus used by Marian scholars entitled Corpus Marianum Patristicum (hereinafter referred to as CMP) containing the writings of the Early Church Fathers on the Blessed Virgin Mary. See, Campos, Sergio Alvarez, Corpus Marianum Patristicum. Burgos, Spain: Ediciones Aldecoa, S.A., 1970. Portions of The Discourse on the Theotokos are designated from # 546-564 and may be found on pp. 59-67. It is also may be found in a corpus of Coptic works written by Gabriele Giamberardini entitled Il Culto Mariano in Egitto. Jerusalem: Franciscan Printing Press, 1974. The work may be found on pp. 149-157. This work is a standard reference tool for those who engage in Coptic studies.

By the way, both of these scholars list the work, at least the portions they quote from, as authentic. The reader might be interested to learn that in Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought. (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999), Father Gambero cites to the above-listed corpora in his book as source materials. Turretinfan, who severely criticizes Father Gambero for failing to give his reasons why he thinks Athanasius wrote The Discourse on the Theotkos (labeled as the Homily of the Papyrus of Turin in the book) apparently either didn’t read the materials set forth in the bibliography or the index or chose not to disclose to the reader for reasons known only to himself that he had checked or read the material before he made his attacks on Father Gambero’s integrity and his scholarship.

At this point, I wanted to offer my own speculation as to why this work may not have been included in the many corpora of Saint Athanasius’ works that one finds in the public library and it is this: a possible reason that the work does not appear in the corpora that we apologists generally use is that most corpora of the writings of the Early Church Fathers were prepared prior to when this work was translated. Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman’s translation of various works attributed to Saint Athanasius were published between 1842 and 1890. The Nicene-Post Nicene Fathers series put together by Schaff and Wace, which relies heavily on Newman’s work, published the selected works by Saint Athanasius, Volume. 4, in 1891. See, Schaff, Philip, and Henry Wace. A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, Second Series. New York: The Christian Literature Company; [etc., etc.], 1890. The papyri that the work is found on were not published by Francesco Rossi until 1892 nor assembled as a complete work until 1905 when Dr. Oskar Von Lemm first published his study of the work. See, Rossi, Francesco , I papiri copti del Museo egizio di Torino. Turin (1892) , t. II, fasc. 1, p. 5-54. Von Lemm, Oskar. “ Zu einer Rede de Athanasius” Kleine koptische Studien, t. XLIII (1905), p.89-139 and 237-239, republished [Nachdruck: Leipzig, 1972].

By now, it is clear that the problem with Mr. Fan’s statement is the his use of the word “any” as I have provided the reader with two examples of corpora that do contain The Discourse on the Theotokos. What may constitute a standard corpus to a pseudonymous Calvinist e-pologist on the internet may not be a standard corpus for a genuine scholar. Further, what may be a “standard” corpus for patristics scholars may not be the same as that for Marian scholars. Undefined terms leads to ambiguity, ambiguity leads to misunderstanding, misunderstanding leads to a failure in proving one’s point. Without such definition, Mr. Fan’s view of what constitutes a “standard corpus” is rather subjective and myopic and merely reduces down to his personal pseudonymous opinion as opposed to a fact upon which one can base an argument. The result is that Mr. Fan’s argument here is not factual, but premised solely on the limitation of what he chooses to use as his reference material.

Chapter V: The Dangers of Using Expert Opinion Non-expertly.

The world is not run by thought, nor by imagination, but by opinion” ~Jennifer Drew


The next argument Mr. Fan makes is his weakest:
“[N]o scholar who deals with Athanasius has (to my knowledge) ever identified it as authentic.”

In attacking Mr. Ray’s view that the quote from The Discourse on the Theotokos is authentic, Mr. Fan attacks the source that Mr. Ray cites: Fr. Luigi Gambero and his book, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought. San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1999. Here are Mr. Fan’s words:

Who are the guilty parties? Well, we see Steve Ray both at his own site as well as at the Catholic Answers site and This Rock magazine, Dave Armstrong, John Salza at CAI, and if one searches the Internet one will find quite a number of lesser luminaries in the field of Roman apologetics providing the same quotations.

Why are they doing this? I would like to assume that they just don't know better. As noted above, Mr. Ray's use of this spurious, pseudographic work was published in the popular This Rock magazine in 2005, which would have given it a wide distribution. It is possible that many folks that are using this quotation simply got it from Mr. Ray, mistakenly believing that Mr. Ray carefully checks his sources.

But where did Mr. Ray get it? Mr. Ray doesn't read Coptic (as far as I know) - so how did he get an English translation of the text to present? I think the answer to that question lies in [Fr.] Luigi Gambero's book, "Mary and the Fathers of the Church," first published in English in 1999. At pages 106 and 107, [Fr.] Gambero provides two quotations from this source. [Fr.] Gambero himself cites to the earlier work of Louis-Théophile Lefort, in Le Muséon 71 (1958).

Scholarly citations aside from Mr. Gambero TYPICALLY CORRECTLY identify the work as Pseudo-Athanasius (see, for example, Virginia Burrus' citation at p. 258 of Late Ancient Christianity or David Frankfurter's citation at p. 35 of Pilgrimage and Holy Space in Late Antique Egypt or at least identify the work simply as "attributed to" Athanasius or other indicators of the dubious (at best) nature of the claim that Athanasius was the work's author. [Emphasis Mine]

What about Mr. Gambero? He provides no argument at all in favor of authenticity of the quotation. Since Mr. Gambero did not write the book in English, but instead the work was translated from the Italian original, perhaps the translator left out some indication that Mr. Gambero had originally provided. Unfortunately, where I am now, a copy of the Italian original (published in 1991 and now out of print and largely unavailable for sale in a used condition) is not within my reach. If any of my readers has a copy and would care to let me know what citation is provided by Gambero in the original, I'd be much obliged

Assuming that the translator has done a proper job, however, we are left weighing the weight of the scholarly consensus against authenticity with an unexplained citation by Mr. Gambero to the work as though it were authentic. Furthermore, Mr. Gambero (while certainly a scholar within his field) is not entirely without bias. One web bio described him this way:


Fr. Luigi Gambero, S.M., a Marianist priest, studied philosophy and theology at the University of Fribourg and the Lateran University in Rome. He specialized in Mariology at the Pontifical Faculty of the Marianum in Rome. He presently teaches patristics at the Marianum and at the University of Dayton.

Once again, Mr. Fan makes an argument against the authenticity of The Discourse on the Theotokos premised on a criterion that patristic scholars do not use to determine the authorship of a particular writing. It gets worse. As shown above, Mr. Fan rails against Father Gambero’s work because Father Gambero failed to provide an explanation why he cited The Discourse on the Theotokos as if Athanasius actually wrote the work. However, does Mr. Fan offer his readers any better?

Before we attempt to answer that question by examining Mr. Fan’s citations to Athanasian scholars who “typically, correctly” cite the work as if it were written by a Pseudo-Athanasius and the compelling argumentation Mr. Fan believes these witnesses provide in support of his contention, I would note that if Mr. Fan had actually read Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin in Patristic Thought and then checked the sources listed in the “Select Bibliography” portion of the book at pages 411 and 412 as well as some of the works cited to in the book, he would have found that Fr. Gambero lists a number of works that do state that The Discourse on the Theotokos was written by Saint Athanasius. The ones that I have determined thus far are:

1. Sergio Alvarez Campos titled, Corpus Marianum Patristicum. Burgos, Spain: Ediciones Aldecoa, S.A., 1970 at pg. 55.

2. O'Carroll, Michael. Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Collegeville, MN: Michael Glazier Books, 1982, at pp. 49-51, 61-62.

3. Giamberardini, Gabriele. Il culto mariano in Egitto. Jerusalem: Franciscan Printing Press, 1974, pp. 149-157.


Moreover, if Mr. Fan had taken the time to read either Fr. O’Carroll’s work (of which he was aware by virtue of statements made to him by Mr. Matthew Bellisario in a comment posting back in mid-2008) or the Corpus Patristicum Graecorum which he cites to as an authority in an update to his original article, he would have found a reference to Fr. Marek Starowieyski’s work in Latin defending the authenticity of The Discourse on the Theotokos entitled, “Maria nova eva in traditione Alexandrina et Antiochena (saeculo V),” Marianum XXXIV (1972), pp. 329-385. Specific reference to the Discourse appears on pages 339-349.

In short order, by using the information in Fr. Gambero’s book, I was able to find at least four references which discusses the authenticity of The Discourse on the Theotokos and give their reasons why the work is an authentic work of Saint Athanasius. Of course I acknowledge it is one thing to find a helpful reference, it is quite another to obtain it, translate it (if it is not in English), then read it and do further research to understand the concepts being discussed in same and due to this writer’s lack of scholarly acumen, it has taken over a month to write this paper.

I will first reference the citation that is in English for the non-Latin literate of us. In Michael O’Carroll’s Theotokos: A Theological Encyclopedia of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a book which can be found in most metropolitan public libraries in the US, one will find under the entry “Ark of the Covenant”:

“In the Coptic sermon attributed to Athanasius which if not authentic is probably of the fourth century, Our Lady is addressed thus: “O Ark of the new covenant, clad on all sides with purity in place of gold; the one in whom is found the folden case with its true manna, that is the flesh in which the God-Head. (Fn. 6)” (Emphasis Added)

Fn. 6 Coptic sermon. Ed. L. Lefort, in Mus. 71 (1958), 216.

Under the entry “Athanasius of Alexandria, St., Doctor of the Church. ( c. 295-373)”:

“The essential contribution of Athanasius to the development of Christology gives importance to his theology of Mary. This is found principally in the treatise on the Incarnation and the writings on virginity, all objects of much critical research, and in the Letter to Epictetus which raises no critical problem. The rich Marian texts, the Coptic sermons do.” ... If the Coptic sermons were authentic we should have in Athanasius as great a figure in Marian theology as he was in Christology. ... But the question mark remains on authenticity.”

Fn. 1 Works ... Coptic sermons: F. Rossi, I Papiri copti del museo di Torino, vol. 2, fasc. 1,2; L. Th. Lefort, “Athanasiana Coptica,” in Museon 69 (1956), 233-241; ibid., ed. with French tr., “De sancta Virgine Dei Matre et de Elizabeth Joannis matre,” in Museon 71 (1958), 5-50; 209-239. On authenticity of latter: for, see M. Starowieyski, in MM, 34 (1972). 339-349; against, see R. Caro, La Homiletica, II, 554-567. (Emphasis Added)
Thus, Fr. O’Carroll informs the reader of a source that favors authenticity of the work while fairly provides a citation to a work that questions it.

Lest one doubts the credentials of these gentlemen as deserving the title “scholar,” I offer the following facts discerned from using a popular internet search engine. Now mind you, I am using Turretinfan’s criteria here to gauge the authenticity of The Discourse on the Theotokos as opposed to the criteria real Athanasian scholars use to determine authenticity of the work, but there is no doubt that these gentlemen are scholars who “deal with” Saint Athanasius.

Father Michael O'Carroll C.S.Sp., (1911-2004) was a teacher, journalist and author who wrote widely on many theological and ecumenical subject as well as doctrinal encyclopedias on Mariology, the Holy Trinity and the Eucharist and other doctrines which summarize patristical writings on the subjects contained therein. He was an internationally known Mariologist and was a member of the Pontifical Marian Academy, the French Society for Marian Studies, and an Associate of the Bollandistes. In 1995, he was awarded an honorary doctorate for his service to theology by the Pontifical University of Maynooth.

Sergio Alvarez Campos O.F.M. (1924-1994) was an ecclesiastic and a doctor of classical philosophy at the University of Santiago de Compostela in Chile. His Corpus Marianum Patristicum is still used as one of the principal reference resources for scholars researching the writings of the Early Church Fathers pertaining to Mary. Additionally, from what I could discern, it would appear that Campos was also considered an authority on the life and writings of Saint Isodore of Seville.

Father Marek Starowieyski has a doctorate in Byzantine Mariology. He is a tenured professor of patrology at the Pontifical Theological Faculty of Warsaw and a professor in the Institute of Classical Philosophy at the University of Warsaw. He also teaches at the Pontifical Patristics Institute Augustinianum in Rome. He is considered a biblical scholar by both Catholic and Protestants scholars in Europe as well as an historian whose expertise spans the first four centuries of the Church. He has written dozens of books and articles during a career that spans 50 years. One of these works is, “Le titre Θεοτόκος avant le concile d’Ephèse,” Studia Patristica 19 (Berlin: Academie Verlag 1987), 236-242 [My Translation: “The title Theotokos before the Council of Ephesus”] as well as many dozens of books and articles, some of which are listed here. He even edited a couple of books (since Mr. Fan finds such to be an indication of mastery of the subject matter) such as “The Development of the Interior Life in Certain Early Monastic Writings in Egypt," The Spirituality of Ancient Monasticism. Acts of the International Colloquium Cracow-Tyniec, 16-19.11.1994 (ed. Marek Starowieyski; Cracovia: Wydawnictwo Benedyktynów, 1995).

Father Gabriele Giamberardini (1917-1978) contributed much to the fields of Christology, Mariology, Eschatology, Liturgical Studies , Ecclesiology pertaining to the early Egyptian Christianity during his lifetime. Professor, author and archaeologist, Father Giamberardini devoted his life to Coptic studies. His Il Culto Mariano in Egitto referenced above is still a standard reference book for Coptic Christian studies. One of his most well known studies pertains to the Sub Tuum prayer to Mary, the oldest known prayer to Mary found to date. See, e.g. ‘Il “Sub tuum praesidium” e il titolo “Theotokos” nella tradizione egiziana’, Marianum 31 (1969), pp. 324-62. He wrote approximately a hundred books pertaining to Coptic and Eastern Christianity, some of which are set forth in the link here. After obtaining a degree in Theology, he specialized in Eastern Christianity studies. He served as the Prefect of Studies at the Franciscan Mission in Egypt and was the Director of the Center for Oriental Christianity in Cairo. He later taught at the Pontifical Faculty Marianum and the Pontifical Atheneum Antonianum where he also served as the Dean of Theology. He also served as a liaison with the Synod of Coptic Bishops during Second Vatican Council.

We shall see these scholars again in the second part of my paper. Suffice it to say, Mr. Fan’s argument that there are no scholars who “deal” with Athanasius identify the work to be authentic is patently incorrect.

Against Father Gambero’s apparent lack of scholarship, Mr. Fan offers what he considers to be examples of “the weight of scholarly consensus against authenticity.” We list them as follows:

1. Dr. Virginia Burrus' Late Ancient Christianity: A People’s History of Christianity Vol. 2: Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 2005, pg. 258.

2. Dr. David Frankfurter's Pilgrimage and Holy Space in Late Antique Egypt. Religions in the Graeco-Roman world, v. 134. Leiden: Brill, 1998, pg. 35.

3. Father Angelo Gila’s article, "Testi E Simboli Biblici Riletti Dai Padri in Chiave Mariana." Theotokos VIII (2000) 601-631 found here.

4. Maurice Geerhard’s Clavis Patrum Graecorum. Corpus Christianorum. Turnhout: Brepols, 1974

5. Several other indices such as the defunct Biblindex: Index of Biblical Quotations and Allusions in Early Christian Literature and René-Michel Roberge’s Index des éditions de textes patristiques.

Unfortunately, if one were to sit down and objectively read the books and articles that Mr. Fan cited to, one would come away greatly disappointed. Why? Nowhere in any of the books or articles that Mr. Fan cites to as examples of the “weight of scholarly consensus” against the work do the writers provide any argument at all as to why The Discourse on the Theotokos is a spurious, pseudographic work and not an authentic discourse written by Saint Athanasius. True, in some of the references listed above (1-3), that author does refer to the work as being written by a Pseudo-Athanasius, but alas, no reasons are given why they do. In short, Mr. Fan is guilty of the very thing he animadverts against Messrs. Ray, Armstrong and Salza for doing-citing sources that do not give the reasons for their opinion! For all his talk about the weight of scholarly consensus, Mr. Fan’s scholarship is no more compelling than that of his opponents!

Now, it is certainly fair for Mr. Fan to question the basis as to why Fr. Gambero believes that the work in question is authentic, but by the same token, it is also fair to ask Turretinfan to point out in the works he cited where his references state why they believe Athanasius’ The Discourse on the Theotokos to be spurious as well. In truth, given his disparagement of the scholarship of Father Gambero, it is incumbent of him to do so lest someone less charitable than myself label him as a hypocrite.

Now before someone accuses me of exaggeration or misstatement, we will take each of Mr. Fan’s citations and examine what they do say.

In his book, Pilgrimage and Holy Space in Late Antique Egypt on page 34-35, Dr. David Frankfurter of the University of New Hampshire writes:
In the same way an anonymous Coptic homily from about the same period [5thcentury] lambasts those who visit “demons ... deluding people as healing cults.” The same people, the homily proceeds to describe ... pour all over themselves water with incantations (spoken over it), and they break their clay pots claiming it repels the evil eye. Some tie amulets on their children, hand-crafted by men–those (men) who provide a place for the dwelling of demons–well others anoint themselves with oil that is evil and incantations and such things that they tie on their head and necks. (fn 82)
Footnote 82 states:

Ps-Athanasius, Homily on Virgin , ed. L.-Th. Lefort, “L’homélie de S. Athanase des papyrus de Turin,” Le muséon 71(1958): 35-36 (ms. pp. 92.95).
Reading this, one must wonder why Mr. Fan chose to cite to Dr. Frankfurter’s work. There is no condemnation of the Discourse as a counterfeit work at all. Nowhere does one see in this reference anything that suggests why Dr, Frankfurter believes the work to be a “pseudographic, spurious work.” In fact, Dr. Frankfurter cites to the Discourse as evidentiary support for his argument that Alexandrian Christians during the time of SS. Athanasius and Shenoute practiced ritual magic, a custom left over from their Egyptian ancestors. Furthermore, there is nothing in the referenced passage that remotely shows that he believes that the portion of the work containing the quote itself about Mary is historically inaccurate, or not consistent with Athanasius’ beliefs pertaining to Mary.

So citing Dr. Frankfurter as an authority for the proposition that work is a spurious, pseudographic work is not as compelling as Mr. Fan would he reader believe. While it does appear that Dr. Frankfurter does not think Athanasius wrote the work by virtue of stating that the author was “Ps-Athanasius,” Dr. Frankfurter is also relying on the authenticity of the work’s contents to support his theories concerning the beliefs and practices of some 4th and 5th century Alexandrian Christians. More importantly, Mr. Fan’s use of Dr. Frankfurter as an authority on Athanasius is further misplaced because his citation gives no insight as to what St. Athanasius did believe concerning Mary, the Mother of God, or how Athanasius’ views are inconsistent or contradictory with those expressed in the quote that offends Mr. Fan so. In fact, given the use of the work by Dr. Frankfurter in his book, one could arguably claim that Dr. Frankfurter believes that the work is a historically accurate depiction of 4th and 5th century Alexandrian Christianity and that they did equate Mary with the “Ark of the Covenant” thereby affirming that they believed Mary remained sinless all through her life, the very point Mr. Fan opposes.

Mr. Fan’s next citation is even less compelling. His citation to Dr. Virginia Burrus’s Late Ancient Christianity: A People’s History of Christianity Vol. 2 in support of his contention that The Discourse on the Theotokos is a spurious, pseudographical work is misleading at best. Looking up the citation, one will find that Dr. Burrus merely was the editor of the book and on page 258 of that work, one finds that the reference to Pseudo-Athanasius is actually contained in material written by Dr. David Frankfurter and on the same subject concerning the ritual magic practices I just touched upon above. Did Mr. Fan actually take the time to read Dr. Burrus’ book before he enlisted it as evidence for his case? If he had read the work, one must wonder why he failed to notice that Dr. Burrus, the editor of the book, was merely republishing portions of Dr. Frankfurter’s work or if he had, why he did not immediately disclose that to his readers.

It seems somewhat disingenuous to me why Turretinfan, on one hand, would take the time of accusing Mr. Ray and others of selling “snake oil” when it would appear that he is engaging in the very same practices that he declaims in others. Are we to likewise remonstrate his seemingly lack of scholarship in the same unchristian manner as he did others? Is it fair for him to issue a reproof against Catholic apologists for exercising a certain level of scholarship, when his scholarship on this matter fails to rise above that of which he complains?

After I pointed out Turretinfan’s faux pas concerning his citation to Dr. Burrus in a comment to the thoughtful post written by Mr. David Waltz on his blog, Articuli Fidei, Mr. Fan responded by glossing over his mis-quoting of Dr. Burrus as evidentiary support and then took the time to criticize me for making assumptions on my part pertaining to the quality of his research~never mind that my assumptions were fairly accurate. Such in my mind hardly constitutes compelling argumentation against the authenticity of the work. Evasion detracts from one’s argument, it does not enhance it.

After people started to examine his references and finding them wanting, Mr. Fan decided to add several more to pad his argument:

03/04/09 Update

As noted in my more recent post in response to William Albrecht's attempted defense of the spurious (or - at best - dubious) work, since the scholars I already named in the article above weren't enough for Mr. Albrecht, I've added one more, Mr. Angelo Gila. Mr. Gila is not only a doctor of theology, whose doctoral thesis was a study of the Marian writings of Severus of Gabala, but Mr. Gila is also a Servite friar - a friar in the order of the Servants of Mary - as well as a resident of the Turin area of Northern Italy (the very area where they papyrus manuscript fragments are housed). In a scholarly article published in the "Theotokos" journal, (Theotokos VIII (2000) 601-631), at page 613, Mr. Gila CORRECTLY identifies this work as Pseudo-Athanasius. [Emphasis Mine]
Here, note how Mr. Fan has backed off from his initial position in all this. Mr. Fan no longer insists that The Discourse on the Theotokos is a spurious, pseudographic work. He now visibly acknowledges the possibility that the work might be considered to be a dubium while downplaying the differences between the two. In rhetoric, this tactic is called “lowering expectations.” In legal circles, this tactic is called CYA (I will leave it to the reader to guess what the acronym means). In those circles where “snake oil” is peddled, the manoeuver is called “puffery.” Regardless, it is a tacit admission by Turretinfan that he could not factually support his original contentions against Mr. Ray and other Catholic apologists with the material he had uncovered in his researches concerning the work.

Mr. Fan even engages in a bit of fallacious logic here. He argues to his own authority by passing judgment whether scholars are “CORRECTLY” citing to Pseudo-Athanasius without establishing that he is any sort of authority at all. Mr. Fan has not deigned to disclose his scholarly credentials to the reader. We do not know if he went to college, where he went to college, what degrees he has, whether he has been published in a peer reviewed journal, etc. Perhaps he has in other postings on his blog, but if he is going to argue to his own authority here, he should have provided his credentials in this instance to show that he had scholarly competence to opine himself. If he is going to rely on his own authority, he should disclose something more than it takes one pseudonymous writer, such as himself, to recognize another, in this case a Pseudo-Athanasius.

Of course, Mr. Fan could be an Athanasian scholar incognito or a scholar of any sort, but then if he were, we should expect that he produce something a bit more scholarly than an attack piece against a Catholic apologist who makes no claims of being a scholar. In short, I would suggest that if Turretinfan is going to continue to attack the integrity and scholarship of Catholic apologists, he should demonstrate that he has the scholarly bona fides to do so. But I am digressing ... .

Let us now examine what Fr. Gila actually wrote to see if it supports Mr. Fan’s contention. Here is in toto what Fr. Gila has to say about The Discourse on the Theotokos:

Uno scrittore anonimo, lo Pseudo-Atanasio, in un’omelia pervenutaci in versione trascritta su un papiro conservato nel museo egizio di Torino, scrive:

“Adamo, fin dal principio, ti lodò nella Genesi chiamandoti la madre di tutti I viventi (Gen 3,20).”

Gila, Angelo. “Testi E Simboli Biblici Riletti Dai Padri in Chiave Mariana.” Theotokos VIII.(2000), p. 613.


My translation (based in part on Google Translate and Yahoo’s Babelfish for the part that does not appear in The Discourse on the Theotokos as aside from a few menu items I know no Italian whatsoever):

An anonymous writer, the Pseudo-Athanasius, in a work that comes to us
transcribed on a papyrus conserved in the Egyptian Museum of Turin, writes:

“Adam, since the beginning, praised you [Mary] in Genesis, calling you the mother of all the living (Gen 3,20).” [My gloss]

Gila, Angelo. “Texts and Symbols of the Bible Used by the Fathers in Key Mariana.” Theotokos VIII. (2000), p. 613.

This passage is found in The Discourse on the Theotokos as translated by Lefort in “L’Homelie de S. Athanase des Papyrus de Turin,” Le Muséon 71 at pg. 218 which states:

Adam dès le commencement te béatifie dans le Genèse en t’appelant la mère de tous les vivants (Gen. 3,20).


To begin with, the very title of Fr. Gila’s article negates Turretinfan’s effort to enlist him as support. By virtue of the positive citation here, Fr. Gila ranks Pseudo-Athanasius among the Early Church Fathers! This perhaps accounts for why Mr. Fan failed to provide his readers with the title of Fr. Gila’s work when he was citing it.

If this were not bad enough for Mr. Fan’s argument, if he had actually read the article, he would have known that Father Gila’s article actually refutes the underlying foundational argument Mr. Fan sought to prove with his attack on Mr. Ray, et al., that Catholics can not make a compelling case from the Early Church Fathers that they held to the same distinctive doctrines taught by today’s Catholic Church. Aside from the use of the name Pseudo-Athanasius in it, Fr. Gila’s article does in fact use the writings from patristic sources to provide a compelling case for overtly Catholic doctrines about Our Blessed Mother, thereby effectively debunking Mr. Fan’s assertions in this regard.

Here is the summary of Father Gila’s work found in English at the end of his paper:

As widely known, the Fathers of the Church were keen and attentive observers of the Word of God. They were also theologically and deeply convinced of the unique role of the Virgin Mary in the history of salvation and of her importance to intensify God’s salvation plan in Christ.

Since the Old and New Testament have been produced by the same Author and represent two aspects of one single plan oriented towards Christ, the Fathers reinterpreted - in a christologic-marian strain - many of the prophetic texts, messianic psalms, characters and figures of the Old Testament and a myriad of symbols and privileged signs of the divine mysteries.

The resulting “dossier” is really broad and impressive.

Four guidelines have been taken into account in this study, for explanatory reasons and mainly to avoid possible repetitions: prophecies, symbols, the Psalter as “prophetic book” the feminine faces of the Old Testament.

The most archaic paragraphs of each section are presented, i.e. the most original and significant texts in the development of the Marian theology, according to the
Fathers.

Ibid. at p. 631.


The nail in the coffin for Turretinfan’s use of this citation is the fact that there is nothing in Fr. Gila’s article why he believes or opines that Pseudo-Athanasius wrote The Discourse on the Theotokos as opposed to the real Athanasius. Aside from one instance of using the appellation “Pseudo-Atanasio,” there is nothing in the article that in any ways help Turretinfan or adds to his premise that Catholics can not make a compelling case for supporting doctrines they believe in from their own Early Church Fathers.

So why cite to it? Was not the reason that Mr. Fan gave as one of his excuses to denigrate the scholarship and reputation of Steve Ray, was that his source (Luigi Gambero) failed to state the reasons why he favored authenticity of The Discourse on the Theotokos in his book? Was Mr. Fan so desperate for a citation seemingly supportive of his position that he used an article that actually refutes his overall premise? At this point, one should wonder why Mr. Fan decided to attack Mr. Ray in the first place if he could not find references that were of any better quality that Mr. Ray’s single citation.

This leads into the next problem. The journal Theotokos is found in very few libraries in the United States of America thereby making it hard for one to find the work to read it for themselves. Mr. Fan does not disclose how he found the citation. Without this link, most readers would be hard pressed to find the article at all and read it so they could see for themselves that his citation actually offers very little, if any, support for his arguments. Moreover, by not providing the reader with the actual title of Father Gila’s work, it makes it even more difficult for the reader to check the source. However, as I have provided the link for the reader to use, the reader can decide himself the efficacy of Mr. Fan citing to a reference that does not make a compelling case for his arguments.

As a last gasp effort to shore up this argument, Mr. Fan offers his readers the following:
Another kind reader has observed that it might be helpful to provide the work's number in the Clavis Patrum Graecorum. This work has been indexed and is included in the Clavis Patrum Graecorum, Volume 2, from Athanasius to Chrysostom (published 1974). At that time, the work was identified as Homilia adversus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria and was assigned the index number 2187, which is in the range of the "dubious" works for those works attributed to Athanasius.

Probably it's worth providing an example of the entries that this work gets in a couple of lists. The Université Laval (of Quebec) provides the following entries (under the direction of René-Michel Roberge), respectively in "by the author" and "by the editor" lists of patristic works:

ATHANASE ?, "Homilia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria" (coptice)Lefort, L.-Th. * ATHANASE ?, "Homilia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria" (coptice) * (introduction, apparat critique, traduction française,repagination du papyrus, commentaire et notes) *22124 1P197 1958 PRSY (link to author index - pdf)

Lefort, L.-Th. * ATHANASE ?, "Homilia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria" (coptice) * (introduction, apparat critique, traduction française, repagination du papyrus, commentaire et notes) *22124 1P197 1958 PRSY (link to editor index - pdf)

Likewise, the Biblindex provides the entry corresponding to the Center for Patristics Analysis and Documentation (CADP) collection as follows (source):

ATHANASIVS ALEXANDRINVS ? Homliia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria 93470 CPG 2187

Turretinfan adds:
In both of the lists above, the "?" is the designator that the work is a dubious work, rather than being within list of authentic works (which would omit the "?"). The lists could have gone further and indicated the work as explicitly pseudographic by using the indicator "pse" - a straw that only someone desperate to continuing citing the work would grasp at.

Unfortunately for Mr. Fan, the above lists do not go further and list the work as a pseudograph matter how much Mr. Fan would wish otherwise. In a moment we will see why the work is listed in these indices as dubium as opposed to a vera or a spuria. Suffice it to say, until more scholarly research is done either to establish a case for the work’s authenticity or to prove definitively that it is not, these lists will continue to label the work as a dubium no matter how desperately Turretinfan wishes it were not so. It is unseemly that Mr. Fan is worried about his opponents grasping at straws when his own hands are full of hay.

There is also the slight matter of Mr. Fan failing to disclose some pertinent facts about the Clavis Patristicum Graecorum, hereinafter referred to as the CPG. The CPG is an index that lists works from different Early Church Fathers. Each father’s works are categorized based on the then- present scholarly consensus of their authenticity. CPG 2187, which is the number assigned to The Discourse on the Theotokos, does place this work among the dubia attributed to Saint Athanasius.

What Mr. Fan fails to disclose to his readership is the fact that the CPG lists under each assignation a list of articles, books and treatises that study the authenticity of the work or provide some significant contribution to understanding it. Hence, when I corresponded to him after he published his initial article on February 27, 2009, I specifically asked him to provide me with the CPG number assigned to the work so I could look it up and find out if there were any works of genuine scholars listed under the designation. After Mr. Fan was gentlemanly enough to provide me that number, I went to the CPG and lo and behold! I found the following:

2187 Homilia aduersus Arium, de s. genetrice dei Maria (coptice)

L. Th. Lefort, L’homélie de S Athanase des Papyrus de Turin, in Muséon 71 (1958), p. 5-50; 209-239.

Cf.: R. Laurentin, in RSPT 52(1958), p.548; –M. Starowieyski. In Marianum 34 (1972), p. 347-349.

De genuinitate dubitat R. Caro, La Homiletica Mariana Griega en el Siglo V, II (Marian Library Studies 4) Dayton (Ohio), 1972, p. 554-567.


Taking the time to read the articles listed under the designation, one would find, in addition to Roberto Caro’s article (actually it is a reworking of an earlier doctoral thesis published in 1968) which sets forth reasons doubting that Athanasius wrote The Discourse on the Theotokos, Marek Starowieyski’s article that does in fact states that the work is an authentic work of Athanasius and sets forth arguments why one can justly believe so. As I have already noted previously, the CPG even uses the title that Starowieyski gave the work. All of this suggests that if Mr. Fan would have actually checked the CPG before writing his piece against Mr. Ray, he would not have made the bold statement that, “[N]o scholar who deals with Athanasius has ever identified it as authentic.”

To sum up my objections to Mr. Fan’s citations to support his argument:

1. The criterion that no scholar who deals with Athanasius has ever opined that Saint Athanasius wrote The Discourse on the Theotokos is not a criterion that real Athanasian scholars would use to determine if Athanasius actually wrote the piece.

2. Moreover, the statement is incorrect. There are some scholars who do deal or have dealt with Athanasius that opined that the work is authentic Athanasiana.

3. Even if the criterion were relevant, none of the witnesses that Mr. Fan called gave the reasons that they believe a Pseudo-Athanasius wrote it, making his witnesses no better than Mr. Ray’s witness Father Gambero, who Mr. Fan criticizes for not doing so.


Chapter VI: Presumption vs. Fact

"Ability hits the mark where presumption overshoots and diffidence falls short."
~Attributed to Ven . John Henry Cardinal Newman.

Having addressed his weakest argument, we will next turn to the strongest argument Mr. Fan makes:
“It is not found in any Greek manuscripts but apparently comes down to us in a single Coptic manuscript.”
Here, Mr. Fan actually touches upon one of the criteria scholars use to test the authenticity of a work but he does nothing with it. It is true, that thus far, a Greek version of The Discourse on the Theotokos apparently has not been found yet. I say “apparently” because there are thousands of MSS that have not yet been translated by scholars or philologists and published. It may very well be mouldering on some shelf or in some container in a museum or research library waiting for the day when someone decides to study it. It may lie rotting in some ancient Byzantine monastery or in some tomb in the desert waiting for someone to discover it like the Didache, which was not discovered in modern times until 1883. It is also possible that any Greek version of the work may have been lost or destroyed.

We see in an 1905 article containing a reference to The Discourse on the Theotokos, we find the following written:
Parmi les nombreux papyrus coptes du Musée de Turin, dont une partie malheureusement vient d'être la proie des flammes, il en est un qui contient une homélie de saint Athanase sur la Sainte Vierge et sainte Elisabeth.

En voici le titre (1) : « Sermon prononcé par saint Athanase, archevêque d'Alexandrie, au retour de son second exil, au sujet de la Vierge sainte, Marie, la Mère de Dieu et Elisabeth la mère de Jean, pour réfuter et confondre Arius et ceux qui sont de l'abomination des gentils » (2).

Le texte est coupé de nombreuses lacunes qui le morcellent; on peut cependant suivre le fil du discours. Marie est d'abord mise en parallèle avec Eve; celle-ci avait introduit la mort de l'âme, la Sainte Vierge par son humilité et sa pureté nous a rendu la vie. « Par elle, la pureté a fleuri dans la nature humaine, elle a fleuri avec la chasteté et la virginité. Oh! quel don céleste a été fait aux hommes par toi, ô Vierge véritable! Venez, maintenant, mes auditeurs, allez dans l'Egypte entière, parcourez cette pieuse ville d'Alexandrie et voyez comment germent partout les fleurs de la pureté! Les uns pour se rendre semblables aux anges dans la pureté et la charité ont voué la chasteté perpétuelle, les autres se font eunuques eux-mêmes pour le royaume des cieux et vivent avec leur femme comme s'ils n'en avaient pas
D'autres encore errent dans les déserts, les montagnes et les vallées, s'enferment dans les cavernes inaccessibles et se condamnent à l'abstinence et au jeûne perpétuel, se privant même de l'eau dont tout animal peut se rassasier et cela pour conserver et embellir leur pureté. 0 Vierge pure dans ton corps et dans ton âme, c'est grâce à toi qu'ils ont obtenu ce don excellent!

Vient ensuite le récit commenté de la Nativité et de la Visitation.

(1) Francesco Rossi, / papiri copti del Museo egiào di Torinu, vol. II, fasc. 1, page 5.

(2) Cette homélie vient d'être l'objet d'une étude très soignée de M. Oscar von Lemm dans ses KleinekoptischeStudien -,XLIII (1905), p. 089-0151 ». Après avoir recherché tous les fragments qui en subsistent en différents endroits, il l'a reconstituée presque en entier.

Mallon, Alexis; Graffin, René; et Nau, François. “Documents de Source Copte Sur la Vierge.” Revue de l'Orient chrétien. Paris: Librairie A. Picard [etc.], (1905), pp. 182-195.
My translation:
Among the many Coptic papyrus of the Museum in Turin, part of which unfortunately has been engulfed in flames, there is one that contains a homily of St. Athanasius to the Blessed Virgin and St. Elizabeth.

Here is the title (1): "sermon by Saint Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria, on his return from his second exile, about the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God and John's mother Elizabeth, and to refute and confound Arius and those who do the abomination of the Gentiles "(2).

Although the text is divided and cut up with many gaps, we can follow the thread of discourse. Mary is first made parallel with Eve, who had introduced the death of the soul, while the Holy Virgin through her humility and purity gave us life. "Through her, purity has flourished in human nature, it bloomed with chastity and virginity. Oh! what a heavenly gift was made to men by thee, O true Virgin! Come now, my listeners, go through the whole of Egypt, through this holy city of Alexandria and see how the flowers sprout everywhere of purity! Some like to resemble the angels in purity and charity by being dedicated to perpetual chastity, others are themselves like eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven and live with their wives and do not act as if they were husband and wife. Others wander in deserts, mountains and valleys, lock themselves up in caves and inaccessible places to compel abstinence and perpetual fasting, depriving themselves of water which even an animals needs to satisfy itself in order to conserve and enhance their purity. O Virgin, pure in body and soul, it is through you they obtained this great gift!

The narrative then goes one to comment on the Nativity and the Visitation.

(1) Francesco Rossi, / Papiri copti egiào del Museo di Torinu, vol. II, fasc. 1, page 5.

(2) This sermon has been the subject of a very careful study by Oscar von Lemm in KleinekoptischeStudien - XLIII (1905), p. 089-0151. After searching all the fragments that remain in various places, he has reconstructed it almost in its entirety.

Mallon, Alexis; Graffin, René; Nau, François. “Coptic Source Documents on the Virgin.” Eastern Christianity Review. Paris: A. Picard Library (1905), pp. 182-195.

As we can see from this passage, many of the papyri of Turin were destroyed in a fire. What if a Greek version of the Discourse were destroyed before it ever got translated? What if there other works that did cite to it but now will never be known?

Further, even if there is no Greek MS extant, it does not follow that the work was never written in Greek at all. Roberto Caro, in his paper written in Spanish titled “La Homilética Mariana Griega en el Siglo II,” Marian Library Studies, Dayton 1972, p. 554-567 (1972) notes that the grammatical structure of the Discourse suggests that at least parts the work was originally written in Greek. Ibid at p. 558-559. Mr. Caro, by the way, opines that the work probably was not written by Saint Athanasius, but by a Pseudo-Athanasius who he identifies as possibly Didymus the Blind who taught at the Catechetical School of Alexandria while Saint Athanasius was archbishop of Alexandria or Theophilus of Alexandria, the archbishop who succeeded Athanasius.

The significance that the work does not have a Greek counterpart is that it creates only a presumption that The Discourse on the Theotokos is not a genuine work. Here is the opinion I obtained from Dr. David Brakke, a genuine Athanasian scholar, who heads the Department of Religious Studies and teaches in the Department of History at Indiana University:
“The authenticity of the Turin homily attributed to Athanasius that Lefort published has arisen every so often, and the current scholarly consensus is that this Coptic homily is not by Athanasius, but is a work of the fifth or sixth century. In the case of Coptic works attributed to Athanasius or any Greek Father (without extant Greek originals or evidence for the existence of Greek originals), the burden of proof is on those who want to argue that they are genuine, and in only very few cases have such arguments convinced people. As far as I know, no one has made such a case for this homily. If someone were to attempt to do so, I'm sure that I and other scholars of Athanasius would consider it. In general, however, the trend in Coptic studies is to doubt the authenticity of the numerous homilies that survive only in Coptic and are attributed to authoritative Fathers of the fourth and fifth centuries.”
M’sieur Lefort wrote something similar in his article on The Discourse on the Theotokos:

L’attribution formelle de l’homélie à S. Athanase, telle qu’on la lit dans le lemme, ne suffit naturellement pas à garantir l’authenticité de la pièce; on ne lui accordera guère que la valuer d’une présumption favorable. En l’absence de tout autre témoignage externe, c’est à la critique interne qu’incombe la tâche de relever ce qui exclurait Athanase comme auteur, soit au contriare ce qui favoriserait une telle attribution. Au stade actuel de nos recherches, nous n’avons encore rien trouvé qui impose la première alternative. Nous livrons done cette curieuse pièce au jugement de ceux qui sont plus familiarisés que nous avec les oeuvres d’Athanase, tout en leur faisant observer que les scribes byzantins ne nous ont guère fourni de spécimens grec homélies d’Athanase adressées à son peuple, pour servir de points de comparison.

Le Muséon 71:14
My translation:
The formal attribution of the homily to Saint. Athanasius, as we read in the gloss, of course, does not guarantee the authenticity of the piece; and accordingly we did not give it a presumption in favor of such. In the absence of any other external evidence, it is the internal analysis that must identify what excludes Athanasius as its author or what to the contrary would favor such attribution. At this stage of our studies, we have not yet found anything that requires the first alternative. We deliver this curious piece to be judged by those who are more familiar with the works of Athanasius, while noting that the Byzantine [Eastern] writers have not yet provided us with specimens of any Greek homilies of Athanasius addressed to his people, for use as points of comparison. Le Muséon 71: 14.
Of course, the converse is true as well. In a small study of another Coptic homily attributed to Saint Athanasius, J.B. Bernadin wrote:
There is consequently no a priori reason for supposing that St. Athanasius is not the author, for there is good reason for believing that he knew Coptic, and in addition to this sermon, there are a number of others found only in Coptic attributed to him. Not until these have been edited and compared, not only with each other, but with the Greek homilies as well, will it be possible to have any standard by which to judge their authenticity.

Bernardin, J.B. “A Coptic Sermon Attributed to St. Athanasius,” The Journal of Theological Studies Vol XXXVIII. Oxford at the Claredon Press (1937), pg. 113.
Whether Mr. Fan knows it or not, the presumption that Dr. Brakke refers to is the only arrow he has in his quiver that The Discourse on the Theotokos is not an authentic work of Saint Athanasius. However, as Dr. Brakke, M’sieur Lefort and Mr. Bernardin all note, additional study of works of this sort is required before the authenticity or spuriousness of the work can be established authoritatively. Unfortunately, Mr. Fan’s polemics against Messrs. Ray and Albrecht add very little to such study.

Because there is only a “presumption” that the work is not authentic, every authoritative index or codex that Mr. Fan mentions in his articles lists the work as a dubia and not a spuria. While he can try to dismiss such a fact by claiming that reliance on this distinction is a straw that only a desperate person would grasp at, I would submit that such empty rhetoric is no substitute for hard evidence. If Mr. Fan had wished to turn a presumption into fact, he should have offered the reader with references that actually give reasons as to why the work is not authentic rather than spending his time attacking the character of his opponents particularly when Mr. Ray's source, Father Gambero, cited to works in his book that do provide reasons why one can believe that Saint Athanasius wrote the piece in question. The fact that Turretinfan failed to catch that from his reading of Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought is certainly not the fault of Mr. Ray, Mr. Albrecht, or Father Gambero.

Even though Mr. Fan's arguments that The Discourse on the Theotokos is a spurious pseduographic work have been vanquished, there is still the small matter of attempting to making a case of our own in favor of authenticity. Although I am no scholar by any stretch of the imagination, in the next part of this paper, I will attempt to at least provide the reader with reasons why one may conclude that the work is genuine using what I have gleaned from my researches thus far.

Until then, God Bless!

Completed on the day of Our Lord’s passion.
Good Friday, 2009.

Friday, January 30, 2009

Does Sola Scriptura Make Void the Word of God?

Over on Beggars All, a woman who is contemplating converting to Catholicism asked Rhology a question, “How does the Reformed tradition decide which traditions to follow?”

Rhology tersely responded by citing one passage out of the New Testament, Mark 7:1-13.

When I saw this answer, I decided to ask Rhology a couple questions of my own. I have studied the pericope at Mark 7:1-13 and its parallel at Matthew 15:1-9 and slowly, ever so slowly writing a paper (I promise Jamie Donald, I will get it done in 2009!) on the so-called Korban/Corban/Qorban rule which Protestants like to throw at Catholics time and again when they want to denigrate the Catholic doctrine pertaining to Sacred Tradition. Usually Catholic apologists and commentators do not deal with the actual text, content to rest their argument on the fact that Sacred Tradition is not a tradition of men, but is considered to be as divinely inspired as the written Scriptures and thus is incorporated in the phrase “Word of God.” However, when I really read the passage for the first time for purposes other than devotional reading, I understood the passage a little differently.

You see, while I was in high school, I had met a Coptic Orthodox priest who used word “korban” in a conversation. When I asked him what it meant, he told me that it was the bread that was to be blessed and broken for the Holy Eucharist. He explained to me that the word originally meant “sacrifice.” Thus, I decided to study the issue in more detail. As you will see, the results of my researches yielded some answers that vary a tad from how Protestants see the passage.

Here are my questions, Rhology's answers, and my rebuttals altogether. My questions will be in italics, Rhology’s answers in regular text, and my rebuttals in bold print.

For ease of following along, here is Mark 7:1-13 as it is set out in the Douay-Rheims version of the New Testament:

And there assembled together unto him the Pharisees and some of the scribes, coming from Jerusalem. And when they had seen some of his disciples eat bread with common, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Jews eat not without often washing their hands, holding the tradition of the ancients: And when they come from the market, unless they be washed, they eat not: and many other things there are that have been delivered to them to observe, the washings of cups and of pots, and of brazen vessels, and of beds. And the Pharisees and scribes asked him: Why do not thy disciples walk according to the tradition of the ancients, but they eat bread with common hands?

But he answering, said to them: Well did Isaias prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain to they worship me, teaching doctrines and precepts of men. For leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pots and of cups: and many other things you do like to these. And he said to them: Well do you make void the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition. For Moses said: Honour thy father and thy mother; and He that shall curse father or mother, dying let him die.

But you say: If a man shall say to his father or mother, Corban, (which is a gift,) whatsoever is from me, shall profit thee. And further you suffer him not to do any thing for his father or mother, making void the word of God by your own tradition, which you have given forth. And many other such like things you do. (Emphasis Added).


Here too is the passage from the Mishnah that I am referencing in my questions:

R. Eliezer says: They may open for men the way (to repentance) by reason of the honour due to father and mother. But the Sages forbid it. R. Zadok said: Rather than open the way for a man by reason of the honour due to father and mother, they should open the way for him by reason of the honour due to God; but if so, there could be no vows. But the Sages agree with R. Eliezer that in a matter between a man and his father and mother, the way may be opened to him by reason of the honour due to his father and mother.


Q. 1.A. Which tradition of the elders was Jesus refuting at Mk 7:1-13?

A. The Korban rule. Jesus says it right there in the psg.

R. Sorry, Jesus does not say that the Korban rule was a tradition of the elders. He called it "your tradition" meaning the teaching of that particular group of Pharisees, not a decision arrived at in the Great Sanhedrin of all the different schools. All of the different schools had to agree on an interpretation in order for a teaching to become a Tradition of the Elders. We know that didn't happen because the Mishnah said it didn't.

Further, the Korban rule is scriptural (Lev. 27:28) and not a tradition at all.

The tradition Jesus is actually referring to was the fact that the school these Pharisee belonged to did not teach that vows could be loosed. Take a closer look at the passage, particularly 7:12


Q. 1.B. Can you cite the appropriate passage in the Mishnah, which is the written codification of the Tradition of the Elders, where the tradition that Jesus was refuting is elaborated?

A. No. I don't, however, see why it's relevant - see 1A. Also the Mishna was begun 150+ yrs after the NT events.

R. It is relevant. Although the Mishnah was written 150 years later, it does record the oral tradition of the elders in Jesus' time. If you take a look at the Gemmara (commentary) after Nedarim 9:1 (in error earlier said 64), you would see it records the teachings (another word for tradition) of two different schools of Pharisees arguing this very point. The School of Shammai say vows can not be loosed. The School of Hillel says they can. Both of the Rabbis mentioned there by the way I believe were around when Jesus was conducting His ministry on earth.

Q. 2. Since the OT was the only Scriptures that those Pharisees and scribes would have known, can you tell us if what is written at Numbers 30:1-3, Lev. 27:26-30, and Dt. 23:21-23 figure into how the Pharisees who were there may have understood the inviolability of a Korban vow that is being discussed in that pericope?

A. Num 30 - no.
Lev 27 - no.
Deut 23 - no.

Unless you think that God is unable to distinguish between greater and lesser commandments. And wouldn't be upset with someone for making unwise or sinful vows.

R. Let's test your theory against Scripture to see what it says about the making of unwise vows. First, take a look at Judges 11:29-40 to see how seriously Jews took vows. Despite the fact that human sacrifice was forbidden, a vow had to be kept regardless and Jepthath still had to kill his daughter because that was his vow to offer the first thing that came out of his home (in ancient cultures many times, the animals lived in the house with the people~Jepthath thought it would be one of his animals that would come out first).

If you do not like Judges, look again at Numbers 30:3 "If any man make a vow to the Lord, or bind himself by an oath: he shall not make his word void but shall fulfill all that he promised." Is there anything here that suggests an exception can be made?

Dt. 23:21 "When thou hast made a vow to the Lord thy God, thou shalt not delay to pay it: because the Lord thy God will require it. And if thou delay, it shall be imputed to thee for a sin." Is there anything here that suggests an exception can be made?

Eccl.: 5:3-5 "If thou hast vowed any thing to God, defer not to pay it: for an unfaithful and foolish promise displeaseth him: but whatsoever thou hast vowed, pay it. And it is much better not to vow, than after a vow not to perform the things promised. Give not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin: and say not before the angel: There is no providence: lest God be angry at thy words, and destroy all the works of thy hands." Any exception here for foolish or unfaithful vows?

Proverbs 20:25 "It is ruin to a man to devour holy ones, and after vows to retract." Any exception here?

I could come up with more, particularly in Psalms but these are off the top of my head.

Furthermore, while we now do distinguish degrees of commandments, the ancient Hebrews did not. They treated all 613 commandments listed in the OT as equal. It was not until the Pharisees promulgated one of their traditions of the elders that held that there were greater and lesser commandments. Halachah found in the Oral Torah are generally divide into two categories: Laws in relation to God (bein adam le-Makom) and Laws about relations with other people (bein adam le-chavero). Violations of Commandments involving relations with other people are considered more serious in degree than ones only involving God in the Oral Torah, as one must obtain forgiveness both from the offended party and from God. See, e.g. “Kalot and Chamurot”: Gradation of Sin in Repentance.

Your answer reads into the passage your 20th century presuppositions instead of how a Jew in the 1st century AD would have understood things being talked about in Mk. Isn't that how Protestants are supposed to look at passages?


Q. 3. If you believe that the keeping of the Korban vow was a tradition of the elders that contradicted SCripture, please cite to any passage in the OT which permitted a person to rescind a Korban vow once made?

A. Mark 7:1-13. That's not in the OT, but I trust Jesus' interp over my own (or yours).

R. Yep, I trust Jesus' interpretation too. But one has to also understand what He is talking about. Apparently, you don't.

Of course, Jesus could negate the commandments in the OT; he does so in the very next section concerning the eating of unclean foods. That is not the point. The problem you have is that He is treating the halakhah of the Pharisees as a commandment equal to the written commandments in the OT. Jesus is chiding the Pharisees here because they weren't following their own Tradition of the Elders which required that commandments concerning relationships with people took priority over commandments concerning one's relationship with God alone. Since the commandment to honor one's parents deals with relationships between people, that was supposed to be of more importance than a commandment to honor God alone. That is why Jesus calls them hypocrites (7:6), because they were following only the written Torah and not the Oral Torah as well! He was condemning sola scriptura as a false tradition at least as practiced by the particular school of Pharisees those guys came from.


Q. 4.A. Does the Scriptures tell us which school those Pharisees had come from?
Q. 4.B. Do you believe that it makes a difference which school the Pharisees who were criticizing Jesus were from there in understanding Mk. 7:1-13?

A. - Not that I know of. Nor do I see why it's relevant.

R. It makes all the difference in the world if you are going to understand the passage correctly! Throw away your bible commentary and pick up a history book instead.


Now Rhology asked me a question of his own, “So...Jesus wasn't submitting a tradition to the Word of God there? Help me out here.”

My answer: If we understand tradition of a particular school of Pharisees yes. Again, your problem is that Jesus was treating the Oral Torah (Tradition of the Elders) as the Word of God and saying it trumped what was in the written Torah!

I realize that you have probably never heard this before. I have looked at what Calvinists (and many Catholic) commentators have written on this passage as well as Jewish ones (yes there are Jewish commentaries on the NT). If you can really poke a hole in this, please do. My thoughts above do need to be tested to see if they ring true as opposed to getting a sound bite or two response.

---------------------------

As I asked Rhology, I will ask anyone reading this blog, please give me your thoughts as to where I am reading this passage wrong.

God bless!

Wednesday, January 28, 2009

The Cygnus and the Humble Hope

(With apologies to John Dryden)

What weight of ancient witness can prevail,
If private reason hold the public scale?
But, gracious God, how well dost thou provide
For erring judgments an unerring guide

~From The Panther and the Hind

Note bene: Over at Beggars All, Mr. James Swan, a prominent Protestant apologist wrote an open post to me concerning the Magisterium and what he perceived to be double standard being applied to Protestants by Catholic apologists. This following is my response to him. For obvious reasons, this response is being posted here as opposed to the commbox over at his blog. I have italicized Mr. Swan's words from his orginal posting.

Hello Mr. Swan:

I apologize for taking so long to get back to you, but I wanted to reflect, pray, and take the time to answer your post pertaining to a double standard you perceive exists among Catholic apologists pertaining to our doctrine of unity within the Church with a response that is something more than a commbox retort. While some might perceive the questions that you asked to be nothing more than a rhetorical device to make a point to your audience, I did not consider them as such and decided to answer them. I would note that I quote from a large number of the members of Church’s Magisterium. Since it is they who are being maligned, I thought it fair to call them as witnesses.

You said: “Roman Catholics chastise Protestants continually for using "private interpretation" and having disagreements.”

My response: To be fair, we Catholics do not “chastise” Protestants for having disagreements, whether they be continual, continuous or otherwise. Being human, we Catholics probably disagree among each other as much as Protestants do. As a matter of fact, that is why Our Lord saw fit to bestow on His Church a Magisterium However, it is fair to say that we Catholics do chastise Protestants for having disagreements resulting from their abuse of using their “private judgment” and using it to subject the Scriptures to your whims.

You said: “They've got all their apologetics books, like Madrid's "Where's That in the Bible?" in which he states, "I as a Catholic look not just to Scripture alone...but also to the Church and its living Tradition" and also in conversation with a Protestant, he tells them they, "can't just assume we have the correct understanding of Scripture" (pp. 10-11). No, Madrid's got the right interpretation!”

My response: Well, if owning that particular Madrid book is the sine qua non as to whether one can be a Catholic apologist, I guess I do not qualify as an apologist. While I do own one or two of Mr. Madrid’s books, I do not own that one.

Flippancy aside, I do take issue with the sentiment expressed by you. Do you seriously contend that the Catholics that you interact with here are so lacking in scholarship that they merely resort to parroting Patrick Madrid, Dave Armstrong, Dr. Philip Blosser, Dr. Scott Hahn, John Salza, or any of the other current Catholic apologetic luminaries? Should I likewise then accuse the Protestants on your blog of merely regurgitating something that James White, Eric Svendson, William Webster, or David Hunt have written? What is the point of us interacting at all if you truly believe that the level of communication between Catholics and Protestants is that minimal and formulaic?

Personally, I suspect that most apologists, whether they be Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Jewish or something else, are moved to do apologetics for the same reason that you are~a love of God and of neighbor. That is why I am here. I believe that despite our differences in matters of faith that we both share that bedrock principle, hence making it worthwhile and fruitful to interact.

And I can assure you that my apologetics study habits are somewhat more sophisticated than reading and regurgitating one of Mr. Madrid’s books (although it is true I do quite enjoy using the two I do own as secondary research resources in my religious studies). Here is an outline of the steps I tend to follow:

1) I first pray to the Holy Spirit to give me the grace of enlightenment.

2) I then try to determine the parameters of an issue, define its elements, and determine the meaning of the terminology employed in explaining it.

3) Then I look to see if the issue is discussed in Scripture, either explicitly or implicitly, and once I find a passage from the Bible I believe to be applicable, I then read the passage as found each of the 12 or so Bible versions I have to see if there is a consistency in how the doctrine is described. As a part of the initial inquiry on my part, I may review the several bible commentaries, both Catholic and Protestant that I own. If necessary I will also review several concordances and lexicons to make sure I have a sense of what a passage means.

4) Then I go through all of the Catholic and Protestant catechisms and encyclopedias I have, both in book form as well as electronically stored material, to see how each side understands an issue.

5) Then I peruse what the early church fathers wrote about the subject. Depending on the issue, I may try to see if there are various translations of such a writing and read all of them.

6) Next, I look to see if there were any concilior or papal writings on the subject to see if the Church has authoritatively decided the issue.

7) If my understanding does not match up with what any of the above state, then I go back and see where I might have gone astray. I also check to see if there any other magisterial writings out there as well.

8) After this, I look to see what classic Catholic apologists, theologians, doctors of the Church or historians have written. I try to look first at the ones who are either with the “Church Victorious” or “Church Suffering” and then move on to those who speak out in the present-day “Church Militant.” I will also admit to a certain amount of bias in starting with Dave Armstrong as he is a friend of mine and his website has a lot of useful material and links there. I then look at other apologists such as Dr. Blosser, John Salza, Steve Ray, Robert Sungenis, and yes, Patrick Madrid.

9) During the course of doing the above, I will also look to see what Protestant apologists and theologians might have to say. In this regard, I try to remember that many of the 19th century Anglican theologians and apologists are almost Catholic in their viewpoints, indeed they often walk the via media or claim that they are as “catholic” as the Orthodox and RC.

10) Since arguing to consensus is the highest form of argumentation, I often try to see if there is a way to reconcile what a Protestant apologist has written with what the Catholic Church teaches. The reason for that is simple: the first rule of heresy is that all heresies start with a truth and then make inferences from that truth that ultimately are incorrect. If Protestants and the Catholic Church do not agree on an issue, I try to see how much the Protestants do agree with the Church and pinpoint where they part ways. For example, I concur to a point with the point of your article--Catholics do exercise private judgment in reaching their decision to assent to the teachings of the Church. However, detrimental to contention I am not aware of a time when the Church taught otherwise.

By no means do I suggest that my epistemic method is flawless and I am definitely still learning, but for good or ill, my methodology has served me to date. Nevertheless, I hope I have shown that this “Paulie” is not a parrot.

You said: “So, OK, show the beef.”

My response: I knew Clara Peller, Clara Peller once shook my hand at a Wendy’s in Columbus, Ohio. You sir are no Clara Peller. If the cartoon drawing of you that is posted on your website is at all accurate, you don’t even look like Clara Peller. (Sorry, I couldn’t resist an attempt at humor especially after spending the past week or so trying to figure out where to cut holes in the walls and flooring of an 140 year old farm house so I can fix the plumbing under the house. Next time, I call “Ask This Old House.”)

You said: “Show us a unified Roman Catholicism. Show us your certainty. Show us the infallible interpretation of Scripture. Show us unified historical “Tradition.” Show us how your theologians and apologists have a collective agreement down the line.”

My response: At first blush I questioned whether you originally were from Missouri. My next thought was that you were practicing to be the next host of “The Family Feud” game show. But it then struck me, you really do not understand what Catholics believe; your notion of Catholicism is all caricature and cartoon-ish.

Now let us speak with candor. I agree that Catholics exercise their private judgment when they decide what to believe in. How could they not do so? However, there is a difference between the exercise of private judgment in the context of an authoritative Church and the abuse of it when there is nothing to compel or even guide one in what doctrines to believe in. His words will be in both bold and italics.

In support of this, I will first call Fr. Ronald Knox:

I shall be accused, perhaps, of a sulky querulousness when I say this. It will be conjectured that I am revenging myself on those who do not agree with me by pretending that they do not understand me. But it is true, and it is a truth which becomes more luminous the more you come in contact with the public attitude towards Catholics, that the English people, when it talks about the Catholic Church loses all sense of reality, of human possibilities. We were for so long a despised and persecuted sect, we were for so long deprived of any opportunity to explain our position that Englishmen have come to look upon us as a race of ogres, from whom nothing natural, nothing human can be expected. They will believe anything of us, without stopping to inquire whether such beliefs are even plausible. Among half a dozen instances of this credulity, let me select one that is peculiarly striking and peculiarly well attested. At the beginning of the first world war, when it was suggested to the Government that Catholics, like their neighbours, would need an increased staff of chaplains to superintend their spiritual welfare, a Cabinet minister professed himself astonished that the ministrations of French priests would not be sufficient. And when it was pointed out to him that these priests would find some difficulty in hearing confessions, it proved that the Cabinet minister had assumed, all his life, that Catholics made their confessions in Latin. One pictures those Irish troops, a Kennedy in every knapsack So true is it that the English sense of realities breaks down when the habits of Catholics are in question. By an equally grotesque illusion, most Englishmen have the idea that Catholics base all their religious beliefs on the authority of the Church. And if we pressed them with the difficulty, "Yes, but on what do Catholics base their belief in the authority of the Church? Do they base that on the authority of the Church too?" I suspect that most Englishmen would reply, "Of course." These people are Catholics, therefore any reason or no reason is good enough for them. They are a race apart, ogres, not men.

Let me then, to avoid further ambiguity, give a list of certain leading doctrines which no Catholic, upon a moments reflection, could accept on the authority of the Church and on that ground alone.

(i.) The existence of God.
(ii.) The fact that he has made a revelation to the world in Jesus Christ.
(iii.) The Life (in its broad outlines), the Death, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
(iv.) The fact that our Lord founded a Church.
(v.) The fact that he bequeathed to that Church his own teaching office, with the guarantee (naturally) that it should not err in teaching.
(vi.) The consequent intellectual duty of believing what the Church believes.


I do not say that these considerations are present to the mind of every Catholic, however ignorant, however stupid. I do say that these are the considerations which any Catholic teacher would put before him, if and in so far as he showed any curiosity about the matter. I would add that a glance at the Penny Catechism will disabuse any unbiased mind of the idea that the Church, even in dealing with simple folk, conceals from them the intellectual basis of their religion.

Yet the average Protestant persists in believing that the attitude of the Church towards the human intellect is adequately summed up in the phrase, familiar to us from childhood, "Open your mouth and shut your eyes." It is supposed that anybody who is brought up as a Catholic retains, without any further questioning or instruction on the point, the pious credulity with which he accepted all that his mother told him, all that the priest told him, when he was too young to think for himself. Any dawning doubts as to the sufficiency of such a motive for belief are crushed, we must suppose, with threats of hell and excommunication. This would be extraordinary enough, considering the number of Catholics there are in the world and the ample opportunities they have for being infected, in a world like ours, with the germs of unbelief. But, still more extraordinary, this Church, which has no proof of anything she says beyond her own bare assertion, is making converts, in an enlightened country like ours, at the rate of some twelve thousand in the year. How does she manage (one wonders) to play off her confidence trick with such repeated success?

This is, indeed, a phenomenon at which non-Catholics profess to feel the utmost astonishment. But it is a kind of astonishment which has grown blunted by usage; they have come to regard it as part of the order of things that their neighbours should become the victims, now and again, of this extraordinary tour de force. If they were compelled to picture to themselves the process of a conversion, they would, I suppose, conceive it something after this fashion--that the mind of the inquirer is hypnotised into acquiescence by the crafty blandishments of a designing priest; not by his arguments, for he has none, he only goes on shouting "Become a Catholic, or you will go to hell!"; not by his arguments, but by some fatal quality of fascination, which we breed, no doubt, in the seminaries. In a dazed condition, like that of the bird under the snake's eye, he assents to every formula presented to him, binds himself by every oath that is proposed to him, in one openmouthed act of unreasoning surrender. After that, of course, pride forbids him to admit, so long as life lasts, that the choice so made was a mistaken one; besides, one knows the power these priests have. Yes, it is very curious, the power attributed to these priests. When you have had the privilege of assisting at their education for seven years, you feel that "curious" is too weak a word for it.

This is, presumably, what Protestants have in mind when they represent submission to the Church as a form of "intellectual suicide." They mean that the act of faith which a man makes in joining the Church is an act of the will (or, more properly speaking, the emotions) in which the intellect plays no part. It is an entertaining fact, familiar to all who are acquainted with the history of Protestantism, that one of the earliest and one of the fiercest controversies between the Reformation and the Old Religion was concerned precisely with this point. It was, of course, the Protestants who maintained the view that faith was an act of the will (or, more properly speaking, the emotions), with frequent allusion to the misunderstood text, "With the heart man believeth unto salvation"; whereas their Catholic opponents earned bitter hatred by insisting that the act of faith, however much directed by the will, had its seat in the intellect. Historically, Protestantism is committed to the notion that the act of faith is the mere surrender of a personality to a Personality, without parley, without deliberation, without logical motive. The true representative of Protestantism in the modern world is the Salvationist who stands up at a street corner and cries out "I am saved." It is Catholicism which insists that, ideally at least, it is the intellect which must be satisfied first, the heart afterwards.

Nor, in point of fact, has modern Protestantism any right to tax us with exalting faith at the expense of reason. It was only the other day that I read an able defence of Theism by an Anglican philosopher who appeared to demand faith of some kind as a preliminary to accepting the doctrine of God's existence. No Catholic apologist ever fell into so grotesque an error. We demand, indeed, on the part of the inquirer certain negative dispositions, as, an absence of prejudice and of frivolity, a willingness to listen and to attend, determination in carrying an argument to its logical conclusion, etc. But to demand of the inquirer any positive "will to believe" as the condition of accepting the existence of God, is to beg the whole question, to stultify the whole process of philosophical discussion. Nobody who will take the trouble to look at any manual of Catholic apologetics, will fail to understand that several of the questions most controverted to-day do not fall, from the Catholic point of view, under the object of faith, at least primarily. They are matters upon which we have to make up our minds beforehand, logically speaking, as a condition of making any act of faith at all. And when I say "make up our minds," I mean, not a mere decision of the will, but a satisfaction of the intellect. The existence of God, the authority of Christ, and so on, are beliefs which meet us and have to be dealt with before we get on to the act of faith at all; they are the preambles of faith, the motives of credibility. And we have to deal with them by a reasoning process, which throws the responsibility for our decision, not upon the authority of the Church, but upon our own private judgment. Every convert, when he goes under instruction, has to follow these arguments to the best of his ability. Nor is it only for the sake of converts that we insist upon this intellectual duty. A class in "apologetics" is part of the normal curriculum of a Catholic school. Catholic boys are learning to defend the existence of God at an age when you and I, reader, were dismally memorising facts about the career of Jehoshaphat, and geshing our teeth on the South Galatian theory.

When you have contrived to persuade him that, for Catholics, the authority of the Church in matters of faith is not a self-evident axiom, but a truth arrived at by a process of argument, the Protestant controversialist has his retort ready. "You admit, then, after all," he says, "that a man has to use his own private judgment in order to arrive at religious truth? Why, then, what is the use of authority in religion at all? I had always supposed that there was a straight issue between us, you supporting authority and I private judgment; I had always supposed that you criticised me for my presumption in searching for God by the light of my imperfect human reason; it proves, now, that you are no less guilty of such presumption than myself! (Does this sound oddly familiar Mr. Swan?)

Surely your reproaches are inconsistent, and your distinctions unnecessary. If you use your private judgment to establish certain cardinal points of theology, the existence of God, the authority of Christ, and so on, why may not I use my private judgment to establish not only these, but all other points of theology--questions such as the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity, or the Real Presence in the Eucharist? You can hardly blame me for using the very privileges which you have just claimed so eagerly for yourself."

I could not have imagined, if I had not heard it with my own ears, the accent of surprise with which Protestants suddenly light upon this startling discovery, that the belief we Catholics have in authority is based upon an act of private judgment. How on earth could they ever suppose we taught otherwise? I say nothing here of the grace of faith, which is the hidden work of God in our souls. But how could the conscious process by which we arrive at any form of the truth begin without an act of private judgment? I may, indeed, overcome by a kind of emotional crisis, surrender myself unreflectively to an influence imaginatively experienced; but that is not Catholicism, it is Protestantism; it is "conversion" in its crudest form. If I employ my reason at all; if I employ my reason only so far as to say "The Church says this, and the Church is infallible, therefore this must be true," even so I am using private judgment; it is my own reason which draws its conclusions from the syllogism. Reject private judgment? Of course Catholics have never rejected private judgment; they only profess to delimit the spheres in which private judgment and authority have their respective parts to play. Is it really so difficult to see that a revealed religion demands, from its very nature, a place for private judgment and a place for authority? A place for private judgment, in determining that the revelation itself comes from God, in discovering the Medium through which that revelation comes to us, and the rule of faith by which we are enabled to determine what is, and what is not, revealed. A place for authority to step in, when these preliminary investigations are over, and say "Now, be careful, for you are out of your depth here. How many Persons subsist in the Unity of the Divine Nature, what value and what power underlies the mystery of sacramental worship, how Divine Grace acts upon the human will--these and a hundred other questions are questions which your human reason cannot investigate for itself, and upon which it can pronounce no sentence, since it moves in the natural not in the supernatural order. At this point, then, you must begin to believe by hearsay; from this point onwards you must ask, not to be convinced, but to be taught." Is it really so illogical in us, to fix the point at which our private judgment is no longer of any service? Are we really more inconsistent than the bather who steps out cautiously through the shallow water and then, when it is breast-high, spreads out his hands to swim?

But there is a subtle and a more telling variation of the same argument. The strength of a chain, we are reminded is that of its weakest link. We Catholics profess to establish the truths of religion by a chain of argument; this chain, then, is no stronger than the weakest link in it. How is it that we profess to hold with absolute certitude the revealed truths of our religion? Reasonable enough to say that if your Church is infallible, the doctrines which she preaches are evidently true, and capable of producing absolute certitude in the mind. But the infallibility of your Church is not a self-evident axiom; it is a proposition which you have proved, and proved it by an appeal to ordinary human reason. Is it not clear, then, that in the last resort every statement which your Church makes rests upon the validity of the arguments by which, in the first instance, you proved your Church infallible? Now, these arguments, based as they are upon human reason, do not convey absolute certitude to the mind; they may be, in your view, overwhelmingly probable; nay, they may be certain with all human certainty; but human certainty is not absolute certainty. There is always a possible margin of error. You cannot prove the existence of God, the authority of Christ, or his commission to his Church, beyond all possibility of doubt; how then can you suppose that you have proved beyond all possibility of doubt the statements which you receive on the Church's authority?

To escape this dilemma, Catholic apologists have frequently used a metaphor which seems to me, I confess, singularly unfortunate. They tell us that the motives of credibility by which we establish the Divine origin of the Church, and her teaching office, are like the scaffolding which is put up while a building is being erected; once the building operations are complete, the scaffolding is unnecessary; it has served its turn, and we pay it no further attention. Now, theologically speaking, that metaphor will pass well enough; they mean that the true motive of our belief, seen on its supernatural side, is the infallible veracity of God in his revelation. But for purposes of apologetic, we shall employ such a metaphor in vain. Our critics will not be slow to point out that we erect a building inside the scaffolding, not on the top of the scaffolding; and if we did erect a building on the top of our scaffolding, we could not take the scaffolding away without letting the building fall to the ground. Our own parable has been turned against us.

It will be better to avoid the metaphor, and to keep in mind the distinction just mentioned. The motives of credibility, satisfying his intellect, bring the inquirer up to the point of making the act of faith. That act recognises God's authority in the Church's teaching; and the absolute nature of his authority does make all the difference to the kind of certitude with which, thenceforward, he holds the truths of Catholic doctrine. But this is inherent in the act of faith, not in the chain of proof by which the Catholic claim is established. Having made the act of faith, he cannot produce more or better arguments to convince his neighbour than he could have produced before. Apologetically, then, revealed truths have no higher certitude than the arguments by which the fact of revelation is established. The revealed proposition that there are Three Persons in the Blessed Trinity is not, apologetically, more certain than the statement (established in the first instance by private judgment) that our Lord left the charisma of infallibility to his Church.

The Catholic claim does not profess to be based on a mathematical certainty. The proposition "Things which are equal to the same thing are equal to one another" is evident in the sense that the contrary proposition is unthinkable. The proposition "Jesus of Nazareth suffered under Pontius Pilate" is not evident in that sense; the contrary proposition, in this case, does not defy our thought. In historical statements (and every revealed religion must depend, in the last resort, upon an historical statement) the highest kind of certainty you can attain is that which excludes reasonable doubt. That is the kind of proof which Catholicism claims for those preliminary considerations which it calls "the motives of credibility." And consequently no point of Catholic doctrine can claim anything better than this historical kind of proof. The absolute certainty with which we believe the teaching of the Church comes to us from the supernatural grace of faith, which transforms our reasoned conviction into a higher quality-- the water, as at Cana, is turned into wine. But for apologetic purposes a reasoned conviction is all we can offer to our neighbours; and it is this reasoned conviction which the present thesis attempts to maintain.” [Emphasis Added]
The Belief of Catholics. Garden City, NY: Image Books (1958), pgs 35-42. An internet version of the entire book may be found here.

Before I go on, I thought it would be appropriate to mention the difference between certitude and infallibility because your comments to me suggested that you may be confused there as well. Here is John Henry Newman to offer his expert opinion on that subject:

"It is very common, doubtless, especially in religious controversy, to confuse infallibility `with certitude, and to argue that, since we have not the one, we have not the other, for that no one can claim to be certain on any point, who is not infallible about all; but the two words stand for things quite distinct from each other. For example, I remember for certain what I did yesterday, but still my memory is not infallible; I am quite certain that two and two make four, but I often make mistakes in long addition sums. I have no doubt whatever that John or Richard is my true friend, but I have before now trusted those who failed me, and I may do so again before I die.

"A certitude is directed to this or that particular proposition, it is not a faculty or gift, but a disposition of mind relative to the definite case which is before me. Infallibility, on the contrary, is just that which certitude is not; it is a faculty or gift, and relates, not to some one truth in particular, but to all possible propositions in a given subject-matter. We ought, in strict propriety, to speak not of infallible acts, but of acts of infallibility....I am quite certain that Victoria is our Sovereign, and not her father, the late Duke of Kent, without laying any claim to the gift of infallibility....I may be certain that the Church is infallible, while I am myself a fallible mortal; otherwise, I cannot be certain that the Supreme Being is infallible, until I am infallible myself...[.]

From The Grammar of Assent, pg. 224.

I apologize for throwing quotes at you from the above passages, but I felt it appropriate in light of the topic to make use of the Magisterium, albeit in the ordinary non-fallible sense, to dispel your misapprehensions. Perhaps you have gotten such ideas from other Catholic apologists who tend to argue from extremes in response to the extreme views often taken by Protestant apologists as to Catholicism itself. However, given the fact that you puffed up by intimation my comments to suggest that I believe in such extremes about the role of the Magisterium, I tend to suspect that you got such ideas in your head based on what your own folk misrepresent about Catholicism as opposed to anything you have been told by Catholics.

In addressing your demand for “show and tell,” I must begin by noting that the underlying premise to your queries is that we Catholics believe and present to the world that the unity of the Catholic Church is derived from some sort of naked-mole-rat, hive mind, lock–step collective agreement on every what our doctrines all mean is as genuine as a three dollar bill. In argumentation, that is called a strawman. While I admit that the use of a “strawman” definition of unity to demonstrate the falsity of Catholicism is perhaps a clever way to save face in a losing argument, it actually does quite little in the way of attempting to refute the Catholic notion of unity itself, and even less in demonstrating the superiority of the Protestant notion of “private judgment,” so-called. In fact, it is as futile as Satan quoting Scripture to the “Word Made Flesh.”
I have now made the charge, and a charge it is, it is now incumbent upon me to carry the burden of persuasion and lay before you my proofs. Mind you~ if I fail to give you satisfaction here, it will be due to my ignorance and lack of skills and should not be imputed to my Church or its teachings. I do not presume to be authoritative, rather I tend to prolixity. Nevertheless, I believe it necessary to put to rest the lie underlying your complaint against the Catholic Church.

1700 years ago, St. Cyprian of Carthage testified of what unified Catholicism actually is:

“If any one consider and examine these things, there is no need for lengthened discussion and arguments. There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, Feed nay sheep. And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, As the Father has sent me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins ye retain, they shall be retained; yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity. Which one Church, also, the Holy Spirit in the Song of Songs designated in the person of our Lord, and says, My dove, my spotless one, is but one. She is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her. Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against and resists the Church trust that he is in the Church, when moreover the blessed Apostle Paul teaches the same thing, and sets forth the sacrament of unity, saying, There is one body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God?” “On the Unity of the Church” 4.


Unified Catholicism is adhering to the authority of the Church to teach. Catholics find unity in our dogma. We find unity in our creeds. We find unity in the Mass and in our sacraments. As witnessed by Lactantius, another early Church Father:

"The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this the house of faith, this the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, and these will be lost forever unless their interests be carefully and assiduously kept in mind" (Divin. Inst. LV 30:11-12).


While some of the words have changed over the 20 centuries that the Mass has been said, you will find that the essential doctrines of the Church expressed in the Mass haven’t changed since St. Paul first described the Mass in 1 Corinthians, which is in accord with the command Our Lord gave at the Last Supper. Further, I would ask you to note at other written authorities as well. Look at the description of the Mass given in the Didache 9,10 and 14 , by St. Justin Martyr in his Apologies, by St. Hippolytus in his “Apostolic Tradition,” in St. Serapion’s “Euchologion.” Compare the liturgies of SS. James, Mark, Basil, John Chrysostom, Addai & Mari and the old pre-Tridentine Latin rite with Novus Ordo Mass or the Tridentine forms used today. There is no difference in the essentials whatsoever. So little of substance has changed in the older forms of the Mass, our Eastern Churches still use these liturgies to this day. Also, look to at the anphora, the hymns and chants that we still sing to this day; the prayers written in the catacombs; and many of the sacramentals still used in daily devotional practice. Further, look at the Apostolic Succession, the lines of bishops, some of which can trace the history of their sees back to the churches talked about in St. Paul’s letters. These things all point to a factual, historical unity that can not be denied.

Now you will object and raise the example of the sedevacantists; or wax on about some dissenting liberal Catholic politicians, such as the arch-accomplices to fetal murder, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry and Joseph Biden; or point out a renegade theologian or two such as Garry Wills or Hans Kung; or even the recent small matter between David Armstrong and Robert Sungenis to show that there is no unity in Catholicism. The problem is you conflate the Church’s infallible authority to teach with its fallible temporal authority to discipline. To my knowledge, the Catholic Church has never claimed to be infallible in disciplining its members. Only Protestants claim that the Catholic Church does. Such notions may satisfy your co-religionists, but what good does it do to disprove a lie?

Given the context of your “show us” ’es that you raised, I am hazarding a guess that you want me to show you my certainty as that the teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church are correct. Well, I must confess, I am not infallible; and, given that I am sinful, imperfect human being, the best I could ever do is to offer you proof beyond a reasonable doubt, which for a lawyer is good enough to win in any court of competent jurisdiction of which I am aware, except perhaps in the court of anti-Catholic opinion. Yet, I acknowledge that no matter my best efforts, or the best efforts of any Catholic apologist, we could never prove any matter of faith with the absolute certainty you insist.

And this illustrates a double standard that Protestants, such as yourself, apply to Catholics all the time. While you demand that I provide you with some sort of show of “absolute certainty” as to veracity and certitude of Catholic teachings, you, on the other hand, ask me to accept your doctrines based on your say-so or more to the point, your fallible “private judgment.”

One of your creedal statements proclaims:

"The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture." (Westminster Confession of Faith, 1:10).


This is all fine and good, but tell me how does the Holy Spirit act as the “supreme judge”? Show me His rulings in your disputes over the interpretation of Scripture and doctrines. Show me the Bet Din ha-Gadol or supreme court where He renders His decisions. Is it in Geneva? Westminster? Wittenberg? The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church? Or does He speak to Protestant leaders as a bath kol as He allegedly did in disputes between Beit Hillel and Beit Shammai over the interpretation of Scripture? Show me how He adjudicated the dispute over the Real Presence between Fr. Luther, Oecolampadius and Zwingli. Or was that dispute not important enough for the Holy Spirit to bother with? Show me how He has resolved the Protestant disputes one occasionally sees on the internet over whether Catholics are even Christians. Most Protestants consider High Church Anglicans as “brothers in arms.” Yet even though such folk believe in most of the same doctrines as I, many Protestants (I do not know how you come down on the issue) would deny me the appellation of Christian because I follow a pope despite the fact that in your system, even man is his own pope.

In short, is it not incumbent on you to show me your certainty before you deny mine. How can you say, “Let me cast out the speck in thy own eye” (Mt. 7:3-5) when you have not cast the beam from your own eye.

And to be frank, Protestants give lip service to the notion of sola scriptura, but the dirty secret is that the notion of freedom of conscience which your pal Turretinfan so lately trumpeted in his series of posts celebrating his disdain for Christmas is demonstrative that you actually value being your own pope much more than unity or certainty of doctrinal truth in any matter.

Now as I have pointed out, it is dogma as the documents of Vatican II make abundantly clear, that each person has the “freedom of conscience” to assent to what they believe. As I noted acknowledged through my reference to Father Knox, the authority each of us assent to is a personal one. What happens after that decision is exercised is where we part ways.

For the Protestant, no matter how much he cries, “I believe in the Bible as the ultimate authority,” the final decision in what he actually believe in rests upon himself. Contrary to what you claim, it is not the Bible that decides what you believe, you decide what it means. You decide what each bible passage means. You decide which doctrines you are going to follow. You decide in the exercise of your “Christian liberty” whether to obey your church leaders. You are your own pope, your own supreme court. It is all about you. Instead of Theism, there is a danger that a Protestant will adhere to a kind of “me-ism.” Further, I find it fascinating that the Catholics, so-called, you point to as your proof of disunity in the Catholic Church all profess a kind of me-ism too.

When a Catholic decides to assent to the authority of the Church, it is not about himself. When I assented to be a Catholic, I agreed to believe in the Word of God as interpreted by the Church’s Magisterium and Tradition. I agreed to submit my judgment to that of the Church. If I, in the study of the Scriptures, come to a different conclusion than what my Church holds, I conform my decision to match what the Church holds to be true. Unlike Luther, I do not contend that popes and councils have erred; rather, I, a sinner, assume that I have. When the Church tells me that I erred, I agree to accept its pronouncements. Once I assented to be subject to the authority of the Church, it would be incongruent for me to take my private judgments over the judgments of the Church.

You said: But Wait! There's small print (Mr. Hoffer, your job requires you to scrutinize the small print).

The small print tells us Roman Catholics have a wide range of freedom to interpret things however they want to, as long as it does not contradict official teaching. The small print tell us very little of the Bible has an infallible interpretation, thus giving Roman Catholics the freedom of interpretation on 99.9% of the Bible. The small print tell us even with infallibly defined dogma, those dogmas are open to interpretation. Even verses allegedly infallibly defined can still be open to interpretation.


My Response: Actually, this would not be “small print” like in a contract, but more like instructions in a warranty. The Church has always taught what you state. It is true that this aspect of our right to exercise private judgment is not discussed very often, probably because Catholic apologists are busy refuting Protestants who are usually are attacking other aspects of the authority of the Church. When we do state that we have the right to exercise private judgment within the parameters that the Church sets down, Protestants act with incredulity and exclaim that they don’t believe that we have the freedom to exercise such judgment. Hopefully, you can lead the way with your co-religionists and correct their misapprehensions.

Now let’s lay some groundwork on why Catholics believe that we need a Magisterium.

The formal rule of the Catholic faith is as follows:

Our Christian faith is grounded upon the Word of God, which is divinely inspired and thus is infallible.


The certainty of the Catholic faith follows from this formal rule of faith.

However, for Catholics that is not the end. It is useless to know that the Word of God is inspired and infallible unless there someone who can identify what the Word of God is, what truths it contains and how those truths should be applied to one’s faith and life. In sum, the Word of God must be interpreted.

A this time, I call St. Francis de Sales to the stand:

Since this [formal] rule not regulate our faith save when it is applied, proposed and declared, and since this may be done well or ill,----therefore it is not enough to know that the Word of God is the true and infallible rule of right-believing, unless I know what Word is God's, where it is, who has to propose, apply, and declare it. It is useless for me to know that the Word of God is infallible, and for all this knowledge I shall not believe that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the living God, unless I am certified that this Word is revealed by the heavenly Father: and even when I come to know this I shall not be out of doubt if I do not know how this is to be understood,----whether of an adoptive filiation in the Arian sense, or a natural filiation in the Catholic.

There is need, then, besides this first and fundamental rule the Word of God, of another, a second rule, by which the first may be rightly and duly proposed, applied, and declared. And in order that we may not be subject to hesitation and uncertainty, it is necessary not only that the first rule, namely, the Word of God, but also the second, which proposes and applies this rule, be absolutely infallible; otherwise we shall always remain in suspense and in doubt as to whether we are not being badly directed and supported in our faith and belief, not now by any defect in the first rule, but by error and defect in the proposition and application thereof. Certainly the danger is equal,----either of getting out of rule for want of a right rule, or getting out of rule for want of a regular and right application of the rule itself. But this infallibility which is required as well in the rule as in its proper application, can have its source only in God, the living and original fountain of all truth. Let us proceed.

Now as God revealed His Word, and spoke, or preached, by the mouth of the Fathers and Prophets, and at last by His Own Son, then by the Apostles md Evangelists, whose tongues were but as the pens of scribes writing rapidly, God thus employing men to speak to men; so to propose, apply, and declare this His Word, He employs His visible Spouse as His mouthpiece and the interpreter of His intentions. It is God then Who rules over Christian belief, but with two instruments, in a double way: (1) by His Word as by a formal rule; (2) by His Church as by the hand of the measurer and rule-user. Let us put it thus: God is the painter, our faith the picture, the colours are the Word of God, the brush is the Church. Here then are two ordinary and infallible rules of our belief: the Word of God, which is the fundamental and formal rule; the Church of God, which is the rule of application and explanation. (The Catholic Controversy. Rockford, Ill.: Tan Books (1989) pgs. 83-85)

How then does God use His Church of God to rule over Christian belief? Again, St. Francis de Sales explains:

The Church, the rule of application, expresses herself either in her universal body by a general belief of all Christians, or in her principal and nobler parts by a consent of her pastors and doctors; and in this latter way it is either in her pastors assembled in one place and at one time, as in a general council, or in her pastors divided as to place and time, but assembled in union and correspondence of faith; or, in fine, this same Church expresses herself and speaks by her head-minister. And these are four explaining and applying rules of our faith;----the Church as a whole, the General Council, the consent of the Fathers, the Pope.

Other rules than these we are not to seek; these are enough to steady the most inconstant. But God, Who takes pleasure in the abundance of His favours, wishing to come to the help of the weakness of men, goes so far as to add sometimes to these ordinary rules (I refer to the establishment and founding of the Church) an extraordinary rule, most certain and of great importance,----namely, miracles----an extraordinary testimony of the true application of the Divine Word.

Lastly, natural reason may also be called a rule of right-believing, but negatively and not affirmatively. For if anyone should speak thus: such a proposition is an article of faith, therefore it is according to natural reason:----this affirmative consequence would be badly drawn, since almost all our faith is outside of and above our reason. But if he were to say: this is an article of faith, therefore it cannot be against natural reason:----the consequence is good. For natural reason and faith, being supported on the same principles, and starting from one same author, cannot be contrary to each other.

Here then are eight rules or faith: Scripture, Tradition, the Church, Councils, the Fathers, the Pope, miracles, natural reason. The two first are only a formal rule, the four following are only a rule of application, the seventh is extraordinary, and the eighth negative. Or, he who would reduce all these rules to a single one, would say that the sole and true rule of right-believing is the Word of God preached by the Church of God. Id. , pgs. 85-87.

We both know, whether you will admit it or not, that the Word of God is not so clear and perspicuous that people can not misinterpret it. Man is ever looking at things in new ways, coming to new conclusions, coming up with new ideas. Studying the Word of God is no different.

As Fr. Knox wrote in the previously quoted, The Beliefs of Catholics:

“I do not mean to suggest ... that biblical study, unguided by any beliefs in the doctrines of a teaching church, is certain to lead men to the wrong conclusions. I mean that such study is humanly certain to lead different men to different conclusions, even on subjects of the highest moment.”


St. Jerome was a bit more direct:

“And let them not flatter themselves if they think they have Scripture authority for their assertions, since the devil himself quoted Scripture, and the essence of the Scriptures is not the letter, but the meaning. Otherwise, if we follow the letter, we too can concoct a new dogma and assert that such persons as wear shoes and have two coats must not be received into the Church.” Against the Luciferians 28.


Here is what St. Hilary of Poitiers, everyone’s favorite proto-Protestant, if the number of times Protestants like to quote him is any indication, wrote:

“For there have risen many who have given to the plain words of Holy Writ some arbitrary interpretation of their own, instead of its true and only sense, and this in defiance of the clear meaning of words. Heresy lies in the sense assigned, not in the word written; the guilt is that of the expositor, not of the text. Is not truth indestructible?” On the Trinity, 2:3.


I, as a Catholic have every confidence in Scripture. I do not have confidence in the ability of fallible men by themselves to "rightly divide the word of truth.” Fortunately, God gave us the Magisterium to help “rightly divide the truth.”

You wrote: This just stinks. I will continue to point out this double standard as long as there is breath in my body. You guys have got to admit your double standard. We’re going to continue to embarrass you.

My Response: Well, I hope I have dealt with your charge of double standard and dispelled the notion that one exists. If anything, it is the Protestants who create a double standard when you demand absolute certainty from us as to the veracity of Catholic doctrines when you do not hold yourselves to that standard. Likewise, it is you that create a double standard when you insist that we distort what Protestants believe and yet Protestant apologists have no qualms from misstating what we believe. Your post to me is full of such misunderstandings.

You wrote: Both DA & Sungenis should be going to their local bishop, and that bishop should be going to the authority above him and so on, until it gets back to your infallible Magisterium. Let your infallible authority tell us which of the Rock ‘Em Sock “Em Robots is right.

First, thank you for your concern about Messrs Armstrong and Sungenis. I am gratified to see an apologist, such as yourself, expressing such sentiments. However, considering that this paper is already 19 pages long, single spaced, I would ask that you first review how the Magisterium operates. There are some very good books out there by Fr. Sullivan and Cardinal Dulles that explain how the Magisterium defines, interprets and clarifies doctrines.

BTW, I find it interesting that you expect the Magisterium to work like an information desk at the local library. Do you know how long it took for the Church to resolve the questions raised by the Arian controversy?

And since you believe that your method of resolving doctrinal disputes works better than the Catholic system, please describe how it would work to make a determination of the matter between Messrs. Armstrong and Sungenis and make it binding on them so that the person on the wrong side of the issue will obey that determination.

You wrote: "If you guys can’t do this, then, I suggest you Mr. Hoffer, start a movement within Catholic apologetics called “Let’s Cease The Double Standards Against Protestants” (LCTDSAP), in fact, we’ll help you over here. You appear to be reasonable person. All we need is a few reasonable Catholic apologists to face the music and admit the Catholic apologetic community has been out of tune with their argumentation for 500 years. You could be….a Catholic apologetics Reformer! You could be the guy who finally says, "enough is enough!" "We have to try a different approach here... we can't keep using a standard that we ourselves don't keep."

My Response: Well here is some testimony that you can’t ignore that disproves your notion.

Pope John Paul II opines:

The unity of the faith, for the sake of which the Magisterium has authority and ultimate deliberative power in interpreting the Word of God written and handed down, is a primary value, which, if respected, does not involve the stifling of theological research, but provides it with a stable foundation. Theology, in its task of making explicit the intelligible content of the faith, expresses the intrinsic orientation of human intelligence to the truth and the believer's irrepressible need rationally to explore the revealed mystery.
To achieve this end, theology can never be reduced to the "private" reflection of a theologian or group of theologians.

The Church is the theologian's vital environment, and in order to remain faithful to its identity, theology cannot fail to participate deeply in the fabric of the Church's life, doctrine, holiness and prayer.

Magisterium Is a Service to the Truth

This is the context in which the conviction that theology needs the living and clarifying word of the Magisterium becomes fully understandable and perfectly consistent with the logic of the Christian faith. The meaning of the Church's Magisterium must be considered in relation to the truth of Christian doctrine. This is what your Congregation has carefully explained and spelled out in the Instruction Donum veritatis on the ecclesial vocation of the theologian.

The fact that the dogmatic development which culminated in the solemn definition of the First Vatican Council has stressed the Magisterium's charism of infallibility and clarified the conditions of its exercise must not lead to the Magisterium's being considered only from this standpoint. Its power and its authority are actually the power and authority of Christian truth, to which it bears witness. The Magisterium, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ (cf. Dei Verbum, n. 10), is an organ of service to the truth and is responsible for seeing that the truth does not cease to be faithfully handed on throughout human history. Address to Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith 24 November 1995


Mr. Mark Shea offers the following corroborative evidence here:

“We refer our judgment to the judgment of the Church and check to see if our opinions conflict with what God has spoken through her authoritative voice. If our judgment does conflict, we assume it is our judgment that needs correction, not the Church, which St. Paul calls the “pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15).”


Likewise, Dave Armstrong discusses the notion that Catholics practice a reasoned “private judgment” and that ultimately that decision boils down to a matter of faith here.

Or since you like Mr. Madrid so much, here is a quote from him:

We hold, like our Protestant brothers and sisters, that the act of submission to truth will not constrict and crush, but will free and train us to walk in the glorious liberty of the children of God. The only difference is that the authoritative bearer of truth, say Catholics, is first the Church and, dependent on that Church, the Bible which the Church produced. That is because, as Scripture itself says, the Church is "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

To deny this need for submission to the Church is not to achieve freedom but to destroy for ourselves the only pillar and foundation of the truth Christ has given us. I am persuaded that Mormonism, Sweden borgianism, Shirley MacLaine-ism, freedom-of-choice-ism, and all the other fragmented isms and rhetoric of the Imperial Autonomous Self, whether religious or secular, are nothing other than what happens when private judgment is not subject to the apostolic authority of the Church to bind and loose and declare what is and is not the content of the faith. Only by submission to the pillar and foundation God has ordained can we know the truth--and the truth shall make us free.”


Phil Porvaznik and Apolonio Latar have posted on their website a discussion on Catholicism and Private Judgment where they quote Henry G. Graham, a convert to Catholicism from his book What Faith Really Means:

"So far, then, from being debasing or dishonoring to our intellect, we consider the Catholic attitude to be the most beautiful and sublime act of homage to Our Divine Lord; we are honoring and adoring Him Who is the first and essential Truth.

"Renouncing our own judgment! Giving up our freedom! Of course we renounce our own judgment when God has spoken; of course we give up our freedom to believe the opposite of what God teaches. Protestants do the same. A Protestant who believes in the Blessed Trinity because God has revealed it -- does he not renounce his own judgment upon it? A Protestant who believes in Hell or in the Incarnation -- where is his freedom to reject it, without sin? So, if God declares that the Blessed Virgin was conceived Immaculate, or that there is a Purgatory, or that the Holy Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, shall we say, 'I am not sure about that. I must examine it for myself; I must see whether it is true, whether it is Scriptural?' Let who will take upon themselves such a responsibility.

"On matters, indeed that Almighty God has been pleased to leave open questions, we are free to hold our own opinions, and there is a wide field here where discussion is not only permissible, but right and proper, and, it may be, even laudable. Thousands of volumes have been written on such subjects by theologians and priests. In such a sphere they have perfect liberty; the Church allows it. Moreover, not only does the Church allow, but she gladly encourages, the wisest, the most devout and learned of her sons to undertake researches into the mysteries already defined to be doctrines of faith; not, of course, for the purpose of finding whether they are true, but for the purpose of explanation, instruction, edification; of discovering and unfolding to the faithful more and more the inexhaustible treasures of Heavenly truth that lie imbedded in any one of the articles of the Faith.

"The world has been enriched by whole libraries of Catholic theology -- dogmatic, moral, ascetical, mystical, and the rest. To speak, then, of the intellect being paralyzed and of the spiritual faculties being deadened by the 'Romish system' is simply ludicrous. Neither the religious literature of Protestantism, nor the finished product of their spiritual system as seen in the lives of its devotees, is to be mentioned in the same breath with that of the Catholic Church.

"When we speak of private judgment, then, let us be quite clear as to what we mean; it has its uses and it has its abuses. Private judgment, in the sense of compiling a creed for yourself out of the Bible, of accepting this doctrine and rejecting that, of judging what should be and what should not be an integral part of the truth revealed by God -- this, of course, is entirely forbidden, for it is directly contrary to the method of arriving at the truth instituted by Our Lord Jesus Christ. Do people imagine that the Son of God, having revealed a body of truth definite and explicit, eternal and unchangeable, left it to us to cut and carve, and to pick and choose here and there such bits of it as suited our taste? What the better should we be today, what advantage would the Incarnation have brought to us, if, after all, we were still floundering about in doubt and uncertainty?

"Far other is the Catholic conception of Christ's mission. So soon as Our Divine Lord, speaking through the voice of His Church, solemnly declares, 'This is My teaching: this is included in the Revelation I made to the Apostles.' -- what Christian, I ask, or rather, what man that fears God, Christian or not, will dare to hesitate to bow in acquiescence, and say, 'O my God, I believe because Thou hast said it' ? ....

"The use of private judgment, on the other hand, in the sense of an inquiry into the 'motives of credibility,' and a study of the evidences for the Faith, to enable you to find out which is the one Church founded by Jesus Christ -- this is permissible, and not only permissible, but strictly necessary for all outside the Fold who wish to save their souls. But mark well: having once found the true Church, private judgment of this kind ceases; having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all. You have sought for the Teacher sent by God, and you have secured him; what need of further speculation?

"Your private judgment has led you into the Palace of Truth, and it leaves you there, for its task is done; the mind is at rest, the soul is satisfied, the whole being reposes in the enjoyment of Truth itself, who can neither deceive nor be deceived....

'Be convinced,' says Cardinal Newman in his great sermon, 'Faith and Doubt' -- 'be convinced in your reason that the Catholic Church is a teacher sent to you from God, and it is enough....You must come to the Church to learn; you must come, not to bring your own notions to her, but with the intention of ever being a learner; you must come with the intention of taking her for your portion, and of never leaving her. Do not come as an experiment, do not come as you would take sittings in a chapel or tickets for a lecture-room; come to her as to your home, to the school of your souls, to the Mother of Saints, and to the vestibule of Heaven.' "

Contrary to what you assert to your readers that we Catholics believe, we do not claim that Catholic Faith is fully written out by the Magisterium. We do not have an infallibly defined bible concordance or official infallible St. Peter the Apostle Bible Commentary (although I do wonder if the Bible is so perspicuous as you believe why there are so many different Protestant concordances and commentaries all saying something different). The Magisterium is silent on a large number of topics and intervenes only when a controversy or necessity demands an authoritative interpretation. Believe or not, we Catholics do believe that the Bible is pretty perspicuous and a large number of things can be discerned using our own reason and knowledge. However, when uncertainty arises, the Magisterium is there to make sure we have not misunderstood.

Furthermore, the testimony of the current Catholic apologists above demonstrate that they are not “out of tune” with what the Church teaches. Rather, your view is the same erroneous view that has been asserted by your predecessors for the last 500 years which has been consistently refuted by Catholic apologists time and time again. Please feel free to give any Catholic who does happen to erroneously assert a position of “absolute certainty” or a kind of unity that is contrary to what the Church teaches my e-mail address and I will be happy to correct them.

Since there already has been one Paul Hoffer who was a reformer (Speratus is Latin for Hoffer), I must respectfully decline your invitation as I would not want to cause confusion.

You wrote: And then, simply argue honestly and point out that Roman Catholics want everyone to accept their authority paradigm as a beginning presupposition. That is, you guys want us to make a leap of faith and accept your unproven beginning faith claim. Sure, you can argue your church is old, and that you have all sorts of cool rituals, and the like. But these arguments that somehow Rome is unified have to stop. They're making you guys look very silly.

My Response: I trust that you have found that I have been arguing this matter honestly and consistently. Furthermore, I have also acknowledge that all authority paradigms are based on beginning presuppositions. I happen to believe based on what I studied thus far, our belief in an authoritative Church is the proper conclusion based on Scripture, history and reason, as well as faith. As far as making leaps of faith and accepting unproven beginning faith claims, I would merely point to history and argue that every heresy was confronted, refuted and defeated by, through, and of the Church. Sola scriptura or private judgment did not turn aside these challenges. The Church used the authority to teach and decide doctrines as Christ gave it.

Finally, while you claim that the argument for an unified Catholicism is silly, can you point to one time in history when sola scriptura, private judgment or one of other Protestant substitutes for papal and magisterial authority actually confuted a heresy?

God bless and thank you for allowing me to participate over on your blog. Despite our differences, I truly do think that you and yours are brothers and sisters in Christ and I do pray that God keeps you and them in the palm of His hand.

I will leave you with some thoughts by John Henry Newman from his Discourses to Mixed Congregations:

It is perfectly true that the Church does not allow her children to entertain any doubt of her teaching; and that, first of all, simply for this reason, because they are Catholics only while they have faith, and faith is incompatible with doubt. No one can be a Catholic without a simple faith, that what the Church declares in God's name, is God's word, and therefore true. A man must simply believe that the Church is the oracle of God; he must be as certain of her mission, as he is of the mission of the Apostles. Now, would any one ever call him certain that the Apostles came from God, if, after professing his certainty, he added, that perhaps he might have reason to doubt one day about their mission? Such an anticipation would be a real, though latent, doubt, betraying that he was not certain of it at present. A person who says, "I believe just at this moment, but perhaps I am excited without knowing it, and I cannot answer for myself, that I shall believe tomorrow," does not believe now. A man who says, "Perhaps I am in a kind of delusion, which will one day pass away from me, and leave me as I was before"; or "I believe as far as I can tell, but there may be arguments in the background which will change my view," such a man has not faith at all. When, then, Protestants quarrel with us for saying that those who join us must give up all ideas of ever doubting the Church in time to come, they do nothing else but quarrel with us for insisting on the necessity of faith in her. Let them speak plainly; our offence is that of demanding faith in the Holy Catholic Church; it is this, and nothing else. I must insist upon this: faith implies a confidence in a man's mind, that the thing believed is really true; but, if it is once true, it never can be false. If it is true that God became man, what is the meaning of my anticipating a time when perhaps I shall not believe that God became man? This is nothing short of anticipating a time when I shall disbelieve a truth. And if I bargain to be allowed in time to come not to believe, or to doubt, that God became man, I am but asking to be allowed to doubt or disbelieve what I hold to be an eternal truth. I do not see the privilege of such a permission at all, or the meaning of wishing to secure it:—if at present I have no doubt whatever about it, then I am but asking leave to fall into error; if at present I have doubts about it, then I do not believe it at present, that is, I have not faith. But I cannot both really believe it now, and yet look forward to a time when perhaps I shall not believe it; to make provision for future doubt, is to doubt at present. It proves I am not in a fit state to become a Catholic now. I may love by halves, I may obey by halves; I cannot believe by halves: either I have faith, or I have it not.

And so again, when a man has become a Catholic, were he to set about following out a doubt which has occurred to him, he has already disbelieved. I have not to warn him against losing his faith, he is not merely in danger of losing it, he has lost it; from the nature of the case he has already lost it; he fell from grace at the moment when he deliberately entertained and pursued his doubt. No one can determine to doubt what he is already sure of; but if he is not sure that the Church is from God, he does not believe it. It is not I who forbid him to doubt; he has taken the matter into his own hands when he determined on asking for leave; he has begun, not ended, in unbelief; his very wish, his purpose, is his sin. I do not make it so, it is such from the very state of the case. You sometimes hear, for example, of Catholics falling away, who will tell you it arose from reading the Scriptures, which opened their eyes to the "unscripturalness," so they speak, of the Church of the Living God. No, Scripture did not make them disbelieve (impossible!); they disbelieved when they opened the Bible; they opened it in an unbelieving spirit, and for an unbelieving purpose; they would not have opened it, had they not anticipated—I might say, hoped—that they should find things there inconsistent with Catholic teaching. They begin in self-will and disobedience, and they end in apostasy. This, then, is the direct and obvious reason why the Church cannot allow her children the liberty of doubting the truth of her word. He who really believes in it now, cannot imagine the future discovery of reasons to shake his faith; if he imagines it, he has not faith; and that so many Protestants think it a sort of tyranny in the Church to forbid any children of hers to doubt about her teaching, only shows they do not know what faith is—which is the case; it is a strange idea to them. Let a man cease to inquire, or cease to call himself her child.

Amen!

Yours in Christ Jesus,

/S/ Paul R. Hoffer
On the Feastday of St. Thomas Aquinas